Astrology - Avoid this thread if you have high blood pressure

[snarkophilus]

I have been writing "horoscopes" all week! I have been going through a bout of obsession with tautological statements, and I figured the best way to overcome it was to append a small horoscope to every e-mail I sent. I made a list of tautologies, and I just cut and paste them. It takes all of two seconds to pump one out. Now I have friends begging me to send them regularly.... *sigh*

Apparently, I am spot-on accurate every time. Of course, since every statement is completely vacuous....

My favourite line thus far: "Surprises can happen unexpectedly."


YOUR personal horoscope, customized for YOU ONLY during this day/week/whatever time period, and not at all applicable to anyone else:

You sometimes feel that the world is moving too fast. New challenges await you in the near future, but don't shy away from them! Meet them head on. Roll with the punches and you will come out ahead. Surprises can happen unexpectedly.

[Noclevername]

Originally Posted by snarkophilus

You sometimes feel that the world is moving too fast. New challenges await you in the near future, but don't shy away from them! Meet them head on. Roll with the punches and you will come out ahead. Surprises can happen unexpectedly.

Beautiful!

[Stuart van Onselen]

Originally Posted by Maksutov

Welcome to the (small) group of bluebloods here who support this quackery.

Meanwhile do a search of the fora re the subject (colloidal silver) and find the various debunkings.

You misunderstand me. I do not at all support the use of colloidal silver. Even before I read the Quackwatch article I had already decided not to touch the stuff.

I was surprised that this reputable site claimed that silver had any benefit at all. I was looking for a nice debunking to something my mom forwarded to me. The article was very firm on the fact that it is not safe to use.

So I won't bother looking up the debunkings here, because whether colloidal silver has mild benefit or no benefit is immaterial to me. I won't use it, nor will I allow anyone in my family to do so.

But I will shut my trap about it in future, in case someone more gullible than the members of this site also misunderstands me, and mistakes my critique for endorsement. I certainly wouldn't want to be responsible for some idiot trying to drink a heavy metal!

[Tucson_Tim]

Originally Posted by Stuart van Onselen

But I will shut my trap about it in future, in case someone more gullible than the members of this site also misunderstands me, and mistakes my critique for endorsement. I certainly wouldn't want to be responsible for some idiot trying to drink a heavy metal!

Sir! I wish to inform you that there is no one more gullible than me.

Slightly off topic, but this reminds me of my junior high science teacher who poured mercury on the top of a large table and "let" us play with it - you know - pushing it around with our hands . . . .

[Dr Nigel]

Originally Posted by Stuart van Onselen

...
I was surprised that this reputable site claimed that silver had any benefit at all. ...

It's shiny!

[Dr Nigel]

Originally Posted by Tucson_Tim

Slightly off topic, but this reminds me of my junior high science teacher who poured mercury on the top of a large table and "let" us play with it - you know - pushing it around with our hands . . . .

Yeah, but that was back in the days when Mercury wasn't "dangerous". It's like, you know, how they used to paint the yellow lines on roads with lead-based paint; spray DDT all over the place to kill mosquitoes; and put tetraethyl lead in petrol.

[sarongsong]

Originally Posted by Stuart van Onselen

The simple fact that all scientific studies [of astrology] performed to date...

Wow, scientific studies have been performed on astrology?---can you name such a study or two?

...Actually, AFAIK, colloidal silver does work. Just not as well as antibiotics...

Antibiotics are increasingly being outpaced by their targets.

and it carries the risk of a nasty overdose condition.

Define nasty, please. No deaths ever recorded, to my knowledge.

(I had to look it up on Quackwatch.com for my mother the other day.)...

Ah, yes, "Dr." Stephen Barrett:

Chiropractors Claim Court Victory Against Infamous 'Quackbuster'
June 14, 2007
In a strongly worded opinion, the Appeals Court for the State of Pennsylvania ruled against Stephen Barrett, a long-time critic of chiropractic and
alternative health care...
PR Newswire
Note: This is one of those sites whose URL address remains constant regardless of the page showing; enter Stephen Barrett in their Search Field to locate full article.

(Could you PM me the article or link you mentioned that prompted your search?)

[Gillianren]

Originally Posted by Maksutov

Would that be "too blessed long"? If it is it's still wrong. Hope there's some progress soon.

I speak from experience.

Yes. Thank you for catching it.

I've gotten a referral to see an orthopedist, and I've got an appointment with a psychiatrist for Friday. Fingers crossed, anyway.

[Maksutov]

Originally Posted by Stuart van Onselen

You misunderstand me. I do not at all support the use of colloidal silver. Even before I read the Quackwatch article I had already decided not to touch the stuff.

I was surprised that this reputable site claimed that silver had any benefit at all. I was looking for a nice debunking to something my mom forwarded to me. The article was very firm on the fact that it is not safe to use.

So I won't bother looking up the debunkings here, because whether colloidal silver has mild benefit or no benefit is immaterial to me. I won't use it, nor will I allow anyone in my family to do so.

But I will shut my trap about it in future, in case someone more gullible than the members of this site also misunderstands me, and mistakes my critique for endorsement. I certainly wouldn't want to be responsible for some idiot trying to drink a heavy metal!

Easy does it.

Where you wrote

Originally Posted by Stuart van Onselen

Actually, AFAIK, colloidal silver does work. Just not as well as antibiotics, and it carries the risk of a nasty overdose condition. (I had to look it up on Quackwatch.com for my mother the other day.)

that appeared to be an endorsement of colloidal silver (i.e., "Actually, AFAIK, colloidal silver does work.").

Meanwhile, I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think things over. And avoid ad homs.

[Tucson_Tim]

Originally Posted by Dr Nigel

It's like, you know, how they . . . .

Thanks for the parody, Doctor.

[Stuart van Onselen]

Originally Posted by Maksutov

Easy does it.

Where you wrotethat appeared to be an endorsement of colloidal silver (i.e., "Actually, AFAIK, colloidal silver does work.").

Meanwhile, I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think things over. And avoid ad homs.

Wah? I'm confused. You seem to be getting on my case and I don't feel I deserve it. I was calm, I did think things over, and I did not insult you or anyone else.

My post was a calm reflection on your comments, wherein I clarified my position, acknowledged yours, and resolved not to raise the issue again.

There was no insult ("ad hom" in the language of this site), either explicit or implied. Nor any indication of stress or over-reaction on my part.

Can we drop this? I have a real "believer" on my case in this thread that I need to deal with, which is more imprtant than fighting over a misunderstanding.

[Stuart van Onselen]

Originally Posted by sarongsong

Wow, scientific studies have been performed on astrology?---can you name such a study or two?

From Dr Plait's site:
http://www.imprint.co.uk/pdf/Dean.pdf
http://www.rudolfhsmit.nl/abstr-c4.htm

Antibiotics are increasingly being outpaced by their targets.

As opposed to silver, which is constantly adapting to face the new threats? Yeah, you're right, my grandfather's Ag was completely different to the Ag you get now...

Define nasty, please. No deaths ever recorded, to my knowledge.

So you think that as long as you don't die, you're OK? That turning blue/grey for life is just fine and dandy?

Ah, yes, "Dr." Stephen Barrett:

Now that's an "ad-hom" if ever I heard one. I suppose the FDA is biased, too? And that any recommendation from them is invalid because once they lost a case somewhere?

(Could you PM me the article or link you mentioned that prompted your search?)

I'm afraid I can't, it was in a chain-email.

And Matsukov, I re-read the article I linked to earlier, and I retract my previous claims unreservedly. The article says that some solutions killed bacteria in a lab sample, not that it was necessarily effective in the human body. My apologies for the unnecessary spat I caused in this thread.

[Maksutov]

Originally Posted by Stuart van Onselen

[edit]And Matsukov, I re-read the article I linked to earlier, and I retract my previous claims unreservedly. The article says that some solutions killed bacteria in a lab sample, not that it was necessarily effective in the human body. My apologies for the unnecessary spat I caused in this thread.

No problem. Thanks for writing that. Looking forward to your future contributions here.

[Gillianren]

Unfortunately, Stuart, you've gotten caught up in (years-old) past board history.

You're right. Silver kills bacteria in vitro, and there's no evidence that it kills it in vivo. Some people have a hard time understanding that.

[sarongsong]

Originally Posted by Stuart van Onselen

...As opposed to silver, which is constantly adapting to face the new threats? Yeah, you're right, my grandfather's Ag was completely different to the Ag you get now...

No; it's the form [ionic and colloidal], purity [ideally .999 fine silver and distilled water, 10-20 ppm] and application [doseage and delivery method].

So you think that as long as you don't die, you're OK?

Antibiotic-resistant bacteria kill more than 40,000 North Americans a year...

That turning blue/grey for life is just fine and dandy?

No; it's back to form, purity and application; when looked at closer, reported cases of argyria attributed to "colloidal silver" fail the purity test.

Now that's an "ad-hom" if ever I heard one.

You think he's a practising licensed physician?

I suppose the FDA is biased, too?

No, they got it right:

Recently, however, some manufacturers have begun to enthusiastically promote oral colloidal silver proteins as mineral supplements and for prevention and treatment of many diseases. Indiscriminate use of silver products can lead to toxicity such as argyria....

And that any recommendation from them is invalid because once they lost a case somewhere?

I don't think he's made a legitimate case against CS, for starters.

...I'm afraid I can't, it was in a chain-email.

[Stuart van Onselen]

Originally Posted by sarongsong

No; it's the form [ionic and colloidal], purity [ideally .999 fine silver and distilled water, 10-20 ppm] and application [doseage and delivery method]

You said that new bacteria were evolving that outpaced antibiotics. My point was, silver doesn't evolve to combat new diseases either.

Are you claiming that silver can and will destroy all bacteria, current and future?

I know something else that can make the same claim: Plasma! Gas at 10,000°C! Kills all known germs dead! Take some every morning after breakfast!

Antibiotic-resistant bacteria kill more than 40,000 North Americans a year.

So what? Can you prove that silver does better at killing these bacteria? Without killing the person using it?

...No; it's back to form, purity and application; when looked at closer, reported cases of argyria attributed to "colloidal silver" fail the purity test.

Even if "proper" use of silver avoids argyria, can you show that it cures bacterial infections? Killing germs in a test-tube doesn't count. (Please note that I have withdrawn my earlier claim that silver does cure diseases - I was wrong, as I had mis-read the article from Quackwatch.)

You think he's a practising licensed physician?

No, I'm saying one man's reputation is irrelevant to the argument. Your position is the very definition of an ad hominem attack.

We're getting off topic, anyway.

This thread is about astrology, which you were defending. What about those articles about scientific studies that I quoted?

[Stuart van Onselen]

The title of this thread states "Avoid this thread if you have high blood pressure". Well, I had low blood pressure before I got involved in it, but now...

[Tucson_Tim]

Originally Posted by Stuart van Onselen

The title of this thread states "Avoid this thread if you have high blood pressure". Well, I had low blood pressure before I got involved in it, but now...

Well, you've kept your sense of humor! That's (almost) always a good thing.

[Van Rijn]

Originally Posted by sarongsong

.No; it's back to form, purity and application; when looked at closer, reported cases of argyria attributed to "colloidal silver" fail the purity test.

Based on what studies?

[sarongsong]

Originally Posted by Stuart van Onselen

You said that new bacteria were evolving that outpaced antibiotics. My point was, silver doesn't evolve to combat new diseases either...

Right; it does not need to evolve, it brings the gun to the knife fight.

Are you claiming that silver can and will destroy all bacteria, current and future?

No.

I know something else that can make the same claim: Plasma! Gas at 10,000°C! Kills all known germs dead!...

Probably costs a bit more than ~$2 per gallon, tho, with truly 'nasty' side-effects.

Can you prove that silver does better at killing these bacteria?

The in vitro studies have been done, in vivo studies, to my knowledge, have not.

Without killing the person using it?

Well, that is the idea, isn't it?

Even if "proper" use of silver avoids argyria, can you show that it cures bacterial infections?

Sure.

(Please note that I have withdrawn my earlier claim that silver does cure diseases...)

I perceived no such claim/endorsement.

No, I'm saying one man's reputation is irrelevant to the argument.

You brought him up; Quackwatch is his site and that was his article.

Your position is the very definition of an ad hominem attack.

Please explain. If anything, Barrett's attack on CS was ad hom.

We're getting off topic, anyway.

You brought it up:

I do not at all support the use of colloidal silver. Even before I read the Quackwatch article I had already decided not to touch the stuff.

Based on what?

What about those articles about scientific studies [on astrology] that I quoted?

Will get to them this week-end.

[Stuart van Onselen]

sarongsong: You know what? I got accidentally dragged into a fight I really have no stomach for.

There is no way I'm going to convince you that astrology is rubbish, or that CS is useless, anyway. If you've managed to preserve these views despite being here nearly five years, no newbie like me is going to change your mind.

So you go ahead. Keep drinking heavy metals, and keep planning your life by the stars. In fact, convince more people to do the same! The world is overpopulated anyway...

[astromark]

The fact remains that the scientific community seem to debunk Astrology as utter nonsense. Me included.
Can I say that ?( I just did.)
Is it correct ?( I am among friends who would agree here.)

The point needs to be made however wrong this belief might be. It is mostly harmless. What does it matter if some otherwise intelligent people seem to fall into this pit of stupidity. It does not. Its there right. As you can see I am willing to stand and fight for the right of the foolish to be so. So there ya go with apologies to any I might offend and a to the rest of ya...mark.

[Maksutov]

Originally Posted by astromark

[edit]The point needs to be made however wrong this belief might be. It is mostly harmless. What does it matter if some otherwise intelligent people seem to fall into this pit of stupidity. It does not. Its there right. As you can see I am willing to stand and fight for the right of the foolish to be so. So there ya go with apologies to any I might offend and a to the rest of ya...mark.

Well, to paraphrase what Jay pointed out re HBs and CTs, the effects of such snake oil are far from harmless.

There's the overall impact on the general level of scientific knowledge in the populace. It's low enough without astrology, homeopathetics, metal peddlers, hoax sellers, and conspiracy mavens dragging it even lower.

Then there's the cultural effect of celebrating ignorance and superstition. Accepting occult practices and magical rites is in direct opposition to what the naturalistic, rational community is trying to achieve.

When you have folks promulgating this baloney, making lots of money off it (where does the money come from?), and often wrecking other people's lives, I wouldn't call it "harmless".

[Sticks]

I was more annoyed how our local rag gave the lady such an easy ride, if we can side track back to the OP. Is that because newspapers are welded to their horroscope column and adverts for psychic fayres?

[Dr Nigel]

Originally Posted by Sticks

... if we can side track back to the OP. ...

Yeah, I spotted straight away that the article was more like an advert than a piece of incisive reportage.

How come, when scientists and rationalists make a noise, the journos have to give equal space to "the other side" even when the other side is patently nonsense, yet some journos will print such credulous claptrap without asking even the simplest questions about what the "practitioner" is claiming? And there is absolutely no trace of a balancing viewpoint from some rational individual or organisation.

[Maksutov]

Well, it's got to be true, since it's being promoted by a grandmother of two!

A lot of people have a poor perception of astrology," says grandmother-of-two Vicki Seaton.

[Noclevername]

Originally Posted by Maksutov

Well, it's got to be true, since it's being promoted by a grandmother of two!

RELEVANT: (adjective) Directly related, connected, or pertinent to a topic.

synonyms: applicable, signifigant

antonyms: irrelevant

[snarkophilus]

Originally Posted by Dr Nigel

Yeah, I spotted straight away that the article was more like an advert than a piece of incisive reportage.

This happens all the time in our local paper. Ads are interspersed freely with articles. Often, the only way to tell the difference is through typeface, or the lack of a (CP) or (AP) designation after the city name. Sometimes there's a box around the ads, too, but not always.

Then again, quite often the reporters will do promo pieces on commercial items. This aggravates me to no end, and is the primary reason why I don't subscribe. I have no desire to pay people to try to sell me stuff.

[Dr Nigel]

Originally Posted by snarkophilus

This happens all the time in our local paper. Ads are interspersed freely with articles. Often, the only way to tell the difference is through typeface, or the lack of a (CP) or (AP) designation after the city name. Sometimes there's a box around the ads, too, but not always.

Then again, quite often the reporters will do promo pieces on commercial items. This aggravates me to no end, and is the primary reason why I don't subscribe. I have no desire to pay people to try to sell me stuff.

That does indeed sound highly aggravating. At least here, adverts are required to be marked as such, especially if they resemble feature articles.

[Jim]

Originally Posted by astromark

... (Astrology) is mostly harmless. What does it matter if some otherwise intelligent people seem to fall into this pit of stupidity. ...

It matters because there are people gullible enough - with a flawed enough understanding of science - that they structure their lives around their horoscopes. They plan their activities, their decisions, their careers, their vacations, even their love lives and children based on their astrological sign and forecasts.

That's bad enough for individuals, but there have been world leaders who used astrologers to plan the positions and actions of their countries. The potential for far-reaching disaster there is disturbing.