http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/06/15....ap/index.html

Interesting choices people make. Inflicting misery for the sake of their pedantic spiritual beliefs. Human travesty.

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The last time I felt a warm fuzzy feeling, I was informed by my doctor that it was just gas.

I agree. Those poor kids!!

And guess who is picking up the hospital tab...not the parents!

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The dose makes the poison--Paracelsus (1493-1541) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus

I don't know. That's why I'm asking--Noclevername

Intelligence may not be clearly defined, but you know stupid when you see it--Noclevername

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge--Carl Sagan (1934-1996)

Yep. Instead of adopting a kid or two, let's spend tens of thousands of dollars trying to get pregnant. How selfish can you be?

Well, I don't have an issue with fertility treatments per se (my heart goes out to people who struggle with infertility). But I don't like to see the technology misused. By that I mean that the welfare of the children should be considered above the parents' egos, not the other way around.

In many cases, use of fertility technology can result in multiple implantations (more than two embryos implant in the womb). Accepted medical practice in those cases is selective reduction of a multiple pregnancy to twins, selecting the biggest and healthiest embryos and eliminating the rest. This gives the mother the best chance for carrying the pregnancy to term and delivering healthy children.


Multiples with N>2 often are born prematurely and have a much higher risk of adverse birth outcomes (death and disability) than twins or singletons. The health of the mom is also put at risk by trying to carry more than two fetuses to term.

Parents who refuse selective termination in the instance of N>2 implantations are selfishly risking the lives of their unborn children and abusing the technology that enabled them to get pregnant in the first place.

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The dose makes the poison--Paracelsus (1493-1541) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus

I don't know. That's why I'm asking--Noclevername

Intelligence may not be clearly defined, but you know stupid when you see it--Noclevername

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge--Carl Sagan (1934-1996)

Exactly, millions of kids who need parents, and they're blindly following an instinctive imperative that evolved when there were ten thousand people in the world and two-thirds of them didn't live past ten.

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"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
"The Mayan symbol for "book" looks a lot like a triple hamburger, but I've never seen them claiming it as proof the Mayans had Big Macs." - KaiYeves
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

Not all of us. There are plenty of people out there who are childless by choice--a growing number, actually.

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The dose makes the poison--Paracelsus (1493-1541) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus

I don't know. That's why I'm asking--Noclevername

Intelligence may not be clearly defined, but you know stupid when you see it--Noclevername

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge--Carl Sagan (1934-1996)

That has got to be one of the crassest thread titles I've seen in a long time.

Fred

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"For shame, gentlemen, pack your evidence a little better against another time."
-- John Dryden, "The Vindication of The Duke of Guise" 1684

Please explain this remark. Should we canonize the parents of those poor kids then?

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The dose makes the poison--Paracelsus (1493-1541) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus

I don't know. That's why I'm asking--Noclevername

Intelligence may not be clearly defined, but you know stupid when you see it--Noclevername

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge--Carl Sagan (1934-1996)

Although the subject of this thread worth discussing, I think it'll wind up being closed Doodler, as the topic is too close to the political and/or religious bone for some. Although maybe not.

'Tis a pity, if so.

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The dose makes the poison--Paracelsus (1493-1541) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus

I don't know. That's why I'm asking--Noclevername

Intelligence may not be clearly defined, but you know stupid when you see it--Noclevername

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge--Carl Sagan (1934-1996)

The link doesn't say anyything about their spiritual beliefs. Is there more info somewhere else?

Yeah, there was a 'miracle from God' comment associated with the earlier articles on them when they were first delivered.

Religion really isn't the direct point, its the insane risks these wannabe goddesses of fertility take with their multiplets' lives.

Humans weren't designed for this kind of load, and the hell they put these kids through could seriously screw them up in the long term, to say nothing of the burden they impose on the state when they go begging hand to mouth because there's no way in heck they can afford the medical bills for their "little angels" at $750k a pop and up for NICU stays of three or four months.

Its nuts, if a woman with a single fetus pregnancy were to deliberately put her baby in a position where it had to be delivered at 22 weeks, she'd be criminalized for endangering her child, yet these parents have the authority to do it to six times the victims?

The ultimate justice here would be for one of these idiots to lose the whole lot. At least then medical ethicists might take a LONG look at just how much risk parents have the right to impose on their kids.

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The last time I felt a warm fuzzy feeling, I was informed by my doctor that it was just gas.

Crass title for crass actions. Selfish desires are putting kids through hell for no logical reason. Few things in this world genuinely irk me anymore, this happens to be one.

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The last time I felt a warm fuzzy feeling, I was informed by my doctor that it was just gas.

No. Nor, however, should we minimize the children's suffering; it isn't their fault their parents didn't follow accepted medical procedures.

As many of you know, I came at adoption from an overlooked perspective. My daughter's mom and dad are wonderful parents--her dad's Fathers' Day card from me is going to be late this year, because I spaced on when Fathers' Day is again--and they did a wonderful thing by choosing to, well, help a woman who had inadvertantly produced a child she could not care for emotionally, financially, or physically. (The bipolar, which was untreated at the time, would have precluded that, I think.) My daughter is healthy and happy and would be spoiled if being spoiled were in her nature. As it is, she is merely very, very fortunate.

I understand the drive to have your own child. I still want to raise children of my own. Actually, I want it a great deal, though I know that it's going to have to wait--even leaving out certain practical aspects. However, I've never believed parents have the right to inflict suffering on their children. (Well, sort of--there are forms of punishment that the children perceive at the time as suffering but really aren't; that's okay.) Frankly, naming a child "Tryg" is suffering enough.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

[B]Thank you!!!![B]

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The dose makes the poison--Paracelsus (1493-1541) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus

I don't know. That's why I'm asking--Noclevername

Intelligence may not be clearly defined, but you know stupid when you see it--Noclevername

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge--Carl Sagan (1934-1996)

OK, OK, the next time you guys talk about dying babies I'll just stay away and let you have your fun.

Fred

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"For shame, gentlemen, pack your evidence a little better against another time."
-- John Dryden, "The Vindication of The Duke of Guise" 1684

What red and white and spins around????

I own't say it.

I did work with a guy who was having fertility problems. They both had to be on drugs to get their first son. Then mom decided a lone child was just a sad thing so they both went on drugs to no avail and finally after invetro, she came up with quads. They didn't select one or two either and instead had 4 kids that took forever to come home from the hospital. Still, they were pretty well off. After a year Mom decided she didn't want to be a full time mom and went back to college dropping the load on mom in law and husband, who had his hands full working full time with us and part time as a carpenter to pay for the bills of the kids and the new house and the college bills.

Weeeell 2nd semester and she found herself some 20 something college boy that just thought she was IT.

Now my buddy lives in a pop up on trailer in the back of his parents yard. The lovely judges of Jackson county decided that he should get all the bills and she should get everything, absolutely everything. Of course he has to pay for baby sitting too, wouldn't want to have her 15 year younger live in stud pay any bills.

Don't screw with mother nature, she's a muther and knows how to get even.

Oh, and bullets are cheaper than divorces, even if you have to do a little jail time.

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TIME Man of the Year

In another thread it has been suggested that telling people what food is healthy is nanny stateism. Wouldn't telling people how many how many fetuses are viable be nanny stateism too? Or is nanny-stateism okay when used to protect children in which case education about healthy diets would be okay when its goal is to improve the health of children? It seems pretty confusing.

I never said a thing about nanny statism; I like a certain amount of governmental interference. Makes me feel like my tax dollars are doing some good, protecting me from pollution and all.

I also believe that children should have greater protection under the law than adults. Once you're a legal adult, you can treat your body and brain with casual disregard. You are not, however, permitted to do so to a minor.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Sounds familiar.

But there was no problem conceiving. We both (at the time) wanted a child.

However at the point of birth the situation was quite similar to what you described.

Specifically, dear mom decided to forsake that role. Then decided to go back to college. Then found a 20-something boyfriend.

I divorced her and got custody of my son. But paid for it by having to turn over my house, all my other property, assets, a five-figure lump sum settlement, and accepting all the debts.

BTW, for all the feminists out there, when I wrote "my", that was accurate. My ex never worked a day in her life, either at a job or at home. Imagine Peg Bundy without the sex drive.

Just before the case came before the judge for final disposition, my lawyer grabbed me and said "She wants more!"

My reply "What do I have left, other than next to nothing?"

"She wants your son's bed and your radial arm saw."

"Why?"

"She needs a place for him to sleep when he visits her on alternate weekends. The saw is so she can make doll houses to sell."

"My son will be spending 12 of those 14 days with me. His bed should be where he lives. The radial arm saw, which she has no idea how to operate, is what I used to make all the pieces of the doll houses she never sold. I used to be out in the garage at 11 PM on a work night when it was 15F cutting .055" thick pieces of firring for the hardwood floors for the doll houses she never sold."

"Well, she wants both of them."

"Tell you what, I will not give up my son's bed. But she can have the radial arm saw. I hope she cuts off her &$*@$ fingers with it!"

"Don't say that!"

"I just did!"

Then, a few minutes later, I was granted my divorce.

Now commemorated every year as Freedom Day.

Postscript: I managed somehow to provide my son with a decent upbringing (which would have been out of the question if I hadn't been granted custody), and now he's the general manager of a bicycle shop (a career based on a favorite hobby, WTG!), a homeowner, happily married, and enjoying life.

Good for you, son!

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A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

Nanny statism to me is regulation on how we affect ourselves. Telling me how to live my life, and so on.

How we affect the lives of others isn't. Pregnancy is one of those nice gray areas between an internal process to a woman and an external process with regards to her unborn children. Given the level of advancement in medical technology in keeping these kids even remotely viable ex utero, I think its safe to call what a woman does to deliberately have a negative effect on the outcome of a pregnancy intended to be carried to term (bite me, pro-lifers) steps enough into the "processes affecting others" side of the line to not fall into nannystatism. At that point when a woman decides the child(ren) she's carrying is going to be carried to term, its a parenting issue, not a personal health one. By putting 4 plus kids in a situation where they're being starved and stunted during a critical phase of their development, she's as much as abusing them.

What is the functional difference between having six kids kept in extreme confinement and starved in the womb, or in closets or cages and starved when they're adolescents?

As an aside, there's an escape clause I have with this. Naturally occurring high outcome multiplets do happen, and in those cases, circumstances dictate a different approach. I would put them in the same category of hellishly binded as I put women who's children have other serious prebirth defects that are identified. Should be noted, given the widespread use of fertility treatments, these cases are a pretty severe minority. I'm more impressed by the choices made by a woman in the US who delivered back to back sets of triplets (sans fertility assistance) than I am a woman who has a doctor inject her with a half dozen embryos who decides to roll the dice with all their lives at once.

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The last time I felt a warm fuzzy feeling, I was informed by my doctor that it was just gas.

Happy Fathers' Day all

And good for you Dad!

It is SO tough being a single parent. I know. I was raised by one.

It is doubly hard on single dads out there because there is no societal support network.

Kudos, man.

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The dose makes the poison--Paracelsus (1493-1541) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus

I don't know. That's why I'm asking--Noclevername

Intelligence may not be clearly defined, but you know stupid when you see it--Noclevername

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge--Carl Sagan (1934-1996)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19268732/

Three down.

And because someone asked earlier for a reference to "spiritual beliefs"

That rates right up there with "Jesus take the wheel" for responsible operation of a motor vehicle, to me.

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The last time I felt a warm fuzzy feeling, I was informed by my doctor that it was just gas.

Just to continue my ongoing study of human cynicism, while in the shower after writing that, I started composing a Letterman style top ten lists of "Responses from God to their prayers"

Might actually send it in when I reach ten and sort them.

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The last time I felt a warm fuzzy feeling, I was informed by my doctor that it was just gas.

Seriously, these people should not have been allowed to name children.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Makes you wonder if the children are dieing OR after realizing that THAT was their name, committing suicide.


And yes, it's a baby in a blender. Dang 3rd grade humor.

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TIME Man of the Year

Have children, the word is have.

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"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
"The Mayan symbol for "book" looks a lot like a triple hamburger, but I've never seen them claiming it as proof the Mayans had Big Macs." - KaiYeves
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

And here I thought nature was trying to tell them that when they couldn't conceive them on their own...

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The last time I felt a warm fuzzy feeling, I was informed by my doctor that it was just gas.

Indeed, spend years visiting doctors and taking fertility drugs, going to clinics, and defying Nature(tm), and then calling it a Miracle(tm) from God(tm).

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"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
"The Mayan symbol for "book" looks a lot like a triple hamburger, but I've never seen them claiming it as proof the Mayans had Big Macs." - KaiYeves
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

Agreed. There's a site where I've seen names this bad and worse. The people there agree with us, in general.