Dell intel 3GHz HT (1Mb cache IIRC), 1Gb ram, ati radeon 9800 pro, win XP SP2.

My computer has stability problems. These show in basically 2 ways:

-sometimes during booting, the computer will stop in the "welcome" screen. He stops before turning num lock on. I can still move the mouse, but the PC will never proceed to subsequent stages and only reset will help.

-sometimes during running, the PC simply crashes, total lockup. Mouse also frozen, if sound plays it hangs like TTTTTIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII. In some cases this happens during surfing or just working in windows, but in most cases it's in 3D games. I also often see graphics glitches right before lockup. Glitches look like some static on the screen. One example: when opening Counter Strike Source, you've got this menu to look for servers. When opening this menu, I already sometimes see the glitches. When that happens, I can be sure that the system will freeze the moment the 3D action starts.

One more thing to note: already when my system was new, I tried to overclock the graphics card, but even the least amount of overclocking triggered these glitches. So I never overclocked it.

Now, what can be the cause? Probably there's loads of dust in my PC (load of dust ON it, and the fans seem to work more than in the past). Could that be the cause? Could it be that the power supply or motherboard don't give enough power to the graphics card? can the graphics card be broken (there's quite some elco's on that thing, maybe they broke due to heat?) Or can it just be a software issue?

Anyway, now I'm still writing my thesis so i don't go into PC adventures just yet. Not even opening, removing dust, refitting connectors. I NEED that PC now (yes, I do have proper backups for everything, but still).

After my thesis, we'll have 2 almost identical PC's, so we'll check and replace and keep the best one, and sell the other one, which will be in essence mine (but sans sound card and possibly with a different graphics card if the other one is better). So then I'll completely format and undust this PC anyway. But of course that will not solve bad PSU, MB, graphics cards. So my question is, anyone got a clue what might be going on? I don't want to sell a PC with faulty hardware, nor do I feel like spending money on new mobo, PSU, etc...

Note that in the first years, the PC did not have these issues and has played the very games it blocks on now perfect in these years. Also sometimes, I still have no trouble for several days, also when playing these games, so it's a problem that only shows about half of the time.

Whatever happens, this PC now has an audigy2 sound cards which will be removed, so that will already save a bit of the power budget and heat sources.

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I have one theory about what might be going on, but it's as good as any guess:

from the beginning, the graphics card had only a minimum of power. Evidenced by the glitches the moment I did even a ridiculous minimum of overclocking.

With dust, the heat increases. This makes the card less stable, and the fans work harder, draining more power from the system.

The extra sound card is an extra source of heat and power drain.

result: system runs too hot and on too few power.

Solution: get the dust and sound card out, full format, and clean install. Optionally install larger PSU or better mobo, but as said I don't want to do that.


Alternative possibliity: the graphics card was only marginally stable from the beginning, and the dust or wear has made it more unstable. Removing dust might solve it, otherwise she might just be worn out and needs to be replaced.

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Side question.

In comparing which PC would be best to keep, mostly the graphics card is the issue. The sound card will go to the PC we'll keep, and both are 3GHZ HT cpu's, 1Gb ram dell dimensions. Marginally different, but very comparable I guess. (both have 1mb cache on the processor to name just one possible difference, I thought the rest also was very comparable).

So, graphics cards.

In the left corner, ati radeon 9800 pro, I think 128 MB version.
In the right corcer, ati X600 256 MB hypermemory (128 own memory, 128 shared)

Which one would perform best (3d games, 2D office and graphics programs).

This would make clear which PC to keep, but of course won't solve the problems of the other PC in itself .

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Heat was my first guess. Before you go much further, use SpeedFan or some other utility and check the CPU temperature. If it's way over normal range, stop using the computer until you can resolve the problem.

Check the airflow. Is it good? Is the temperature in the house high right now? Are the CPU (and other) fans okay? Have you changed anything recently? I've had systems with marginal cooling, and this sounds familiar.

I'd also look at the power supply. A marginal supply could cause problems.

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Same here re heat.

I've been using MBM (or equivalent) ever since moving to Pentiums.

Plus you might want to go into your BIOS settings and see where the CPU temperature alarm is set. It shouldn't be much more than 65C.

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So go into bios and check temperature alarm (do all PC's have this option?)
Download a temperature program such as speedfan, MBM. (do all PC's work with this?)

And if anything seems not OK, stop using and resolve heat issue first.

I'll try that.

2 more things that came to mind:

-my current location suffers from often too low voltage from the sockets, plus occasional high currents. Light bulbs tend to live short here.

-my current location does not have grounded sockets.

-my current location has only one power group for basically everything. Stereo, fridge, computer, lights...

-problems started the day I bought a new stereo tuner (separate, unrelated to PC but placed quite close to it). This may be a coincidence though, as I also get lockups when the tuner is off, and I thinks its power switch is placed even before the transformer.

Anyway, I'll monitor the temperature -I think it's way above 65° often- and see what needs to be done.

One last thing re temperature though. Could it really rise that fast? Because the welcome screen is after like 1 minute PC running time max, and already there sometimes I get lockups. Now I guess, but it's a guess only, that this problem actually might be unrelated and be a software issue. Because since years, I've also had a problem with the office toolbar at startup. So at the moment, I consider the total lockup (mouse freeze) and welcome screen ( no mouse freeze) issues unrelated, and see the latter as software trouble that should be solved after a format. Games can block very fast too, but I guess that if the graphics chip starts out too hot due to heat, it really takes just a second to make it unstable and hot.

I fear the amount of dust I'll find inside the PC . (I have no other choice than to place it in my bedroom with carpet, where it's been for 3 years)

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I'll make a separate topic for the graphics card comparison question.

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I recently upgraded my computer, and I had a host of problems with stability. It turned out to be caused by incompatible RAM. Since changing to a different brand of DDR2 I've been stable. Possibly you have a RAM stick that's getting flaky.

The heat issue is also possible. Check to make sure your processor cooler (fan) is still working; if it has failed, the chip could heat up very quickly. Have you noticed any loss of speed/performance? Some motherboards will downshift the processor clock if they detect overheating.

I know it's out of your control, but your low line voltage could be contributing to heat issues. The power supply will draw more line current at low voltage, and higher current translates into greater heat dissipation. However, if you're on a 220V system and the supply is "universal" (doesn't require a switch to change between 120/220) you'll still be drawing far less current than the supply was designed for.

Another thing to try is to remove any resident software, in case there's bad code in there. I'd start with the office toolbar. You should also check for driver updates for all your peripheral devices. If you're up to date, and you started having issues around the time you last updated a driver, try backing down to a lower version.

Good luck. Stability problems can be the most frustrating to track down.

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"Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." (Paul Simon)

Stop messing about with a stuffed PC. If it will not run and you have good graphics card and reloaded program after complete delete. Replace it.
Replace it with a NEW PC. Plenty of grunt, speed and clean. No more problems. And keep it clean. Delete junk regularly. We are often guilty of keeping far to much. ( That is a unsupported leap of faith.) I work under the rule...If I am not using it it gets dumped or written to disk. Sadly I suspect none of this will help you...
It seems to me that no amount of fixing will cure your overheating PC. Its done its dash, Knackard, As much use as a plastic knife. Some times you just have to spend the money. Replace it.
If you can you should make an effort to secure a reliable power supply. No PC can function properly with fluctuating voltages or impedance variations. You have some very serious problems,. Get professional help.

Somehow I'm that strange guy who doesn't have money to replace a PC every 3 years. Things I'll already need to buy next month:

-appartment
-car
-freezer
-washing machine
-suits
-microwave oven
-etc

Oh and I don't have a job.

If anyone should have further questions on why I don't want to buy a new PC or parts right now...

Now the good news in all this is that I will have a far better mains supply WITH grounding within 2 months. And I won't be needing that PC for a while then, in fact I will have to format it anyway. So I'll be able to completely format it, undust it (which I'll also try this week if I find time, very carfully , but format is out of the question right now), reseat every part in case it's loose, get the sound card out, and test it.

And I don't want to accept that this PC should just go in the trash because it has an issue right now. At least I'd like to know which part causes it, because it is stuffed with good hardware (hence in any case i could still use the rest). Sure, not the newest of the newest, but you cannot call my PC an old sneal by any stretch of the imagination .

And I don't want to sell a bad PC to others, so I want to go to the bottom of this .

(on a sidenote, I like the natural self protection of a processor that runs too hot and blocks, well at least that's how it goes in most cases, fortunately)

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As it freezes even at startup when the PC should be cool, I would guess its a defective RAM module. If you have multiple modules, remove one and try to work with the remaining. If it still freezes, try using the other module. If even this does not help, get it to a professional.

Anyhow,
cleaning the interior and checking if every fan is running should come first.

EDITED.
Oh,and since you mentioned overclocking the graphics card...
Is your CPU overclocked too? If yes set it on standard speed.
Pushing it too much, can lead to a defective CPU.

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OK. I have 1GB, but I fear it's a single stick of RAM, so no way to check that.

But I'll start with interior and fans. Certainly some fans are still working, as it tends to sound like a 747 at times.

Question though, why would faulty ram cause graphics glitches? Why only when starting 3D applications? My Radeon does not share graphics memory, so I don't see how faulty ram could cause graphics glitches ("static"). That's why I looked in the chain mains-PSU-MoBo-graphics card.

The startup problem is something different altogether of course, that could be faulty ram or simply a software thing.

re overclocking: nothing is overclocked in my PC, never has been. Except for trying to do the graphics card once, but the moment I shifted the clock slider 1 position to the right (which would be something like from 360 to 360.7MHz) I saw glitches, so I never overclocked it. The PC was new when I tried that, and worked good for about 2 years after that, so I didn't damage it with that trial . It may be an indication that the graphics card ran, for whatever reason but likely not dust back then, at the edge of its stability. I also saw the glitches in just windows desktop when I tried that, something I have not seen with my current problems though .

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When it only occures when using 3D applications, clean the graphics card or you might even try to replace it with another card, just to be sure.
Maybe a friend of you has an old card, that you could use, in his drawer...

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The total lockup including frozen mouse only occurs very rarely in regular applications (desktop, office...). Almost always within seconds after starting a 3D scene, and also sometimes in the 2D menu (with transparency and the like) of CS:source. So I assume that issue is related to the graphics card.

I could simply check with the onboard GFX card (I think it has one, at least. it certainly has onboard sound too ) and see if the problem remains.

But this check, or checking with another card, might not give the right clue when the problem is not with the radeon card but with a lack of power it gets (which still may be enough power for another card though).

Anyway, first step: de-dust and check fans .

I won't do hardware magic other than removing dust and maybe pushing the coneectors firmly in place until I finished my thesis .

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I just did the following (after the monitor programs failed to work )

-open case
-remove tons of dust
-remove airflow channel from top of cpu
-clean fans, airflow holes as good as possible
-remove cover from graphics card cover
-remove dust inthere too

All flow inlets and outlets of the case were closed off by dust. Even worse, the gaps in the cooling fins over teh cpu and gpu were blocked off by dust too, these effectively got no airflow at all.

End result: for the first time in about a week, I could run CS:source again. I tried 3dmark05 before, but it blocked. Now it ran perfectly. Problem solved! Full format should solve the rest.

My PC hasn't been this quiet in years.

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Tons of dust? Wow. Either your machine runs 24/7, or your room....
No, your PC runs 24/7, does it?

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The PC in question runs 5 days per week, 7 hours per day. (I work on multiple machines, so my online time is slightly larger )

But this particular PC -my own PC- has been standing in my student room for all its life (3 years). In particular, this means rooms with carpet on the floor and a bed in them, and for the first 1.5 years not even the possibility to open a window.

This type of room is very, very dusty. And the computer shows .

I hope all stays well now, if it gets enough air it seems to get enough power to stay stable.

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Question: does any ATX PSU fit in a dimension 4600?

Some people on the internet say it does, but I heard others talk about different pin orders and not everything being compatible...

It's just that now that the dust is out, the graphics card is perfect, but sometimes I still lockup on boot and the 4600 has known PSu issues. So I'd like to know whether I can buy any normal shaped, not too high ATX PSU (300W or more of course) or I have to look for certain pin orders/connectors/whatever in order for it to be compatible.

edit: I found a source where people got deep into it, and it appears the 4600 mobo uses the standard atc layout. YES! The casing can be a bit difficult, but a file and cutters should solve that.

So I could buy a cheap yet powerful (compared to the 250W nonsense, there's a radeon9800pro in that thing!!) standard anybrand ATX supply if I'd like to. I guess. Before I blow up my mobo, comments are appreciated .

(For 30€ I buy a 420W Trust ATC 20/24 pins,, that would be a nice upgradde since a) 250W is way too little and b)2003 dimension4600 PSU's are known to be very, very faulty. I guess 20/24 pins means it would work at many dells, also those using not the standard 20 pin ATX which the dimension4600 does)

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