in the near future, we'll have to decide which PC to keep. Both are very comparable, only the graphics cards are different. Which one would be the best performing card:

Ati radeon 9800 pro (I think the 128mb version)

Ati X600 256mb hypermemory (I think that's 128 dedicated and 128 shared)

Cards will be used for 3D games, 2D office works and graphical programs. Cards will have to connect to 2 19" LCD's (1280*1024). Both cards have (only, unfortunately) one digital and one analog connector, so no difference there.

We'd prefer to keep the PC that has the X600 in it, because it's the prettiest PC case. But the radeon will not fit in I think (agp vs PCIe). I hope the (PCI) sound card will fit in the PC having the X600, I think so.

Anyway is keeping the X600 instead of the 9800 pro a disadvantage or not?

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It's a clear decision. Keep the X600. The 9800 is an older card, less capable all around, and sticking with the AGP motherboard will severely restrict your future upgrade options.

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thanks. So this will not reduce the performance of the PC compared to using the radeon, assuming they're identical otherwise? Good news . I asked because I read the hypermemory thing could degrade performance, according to the internet. But OTOH, this card does have as much dedicated memory as the radeon too (unless I'm mistaken in that) and 128mb on 1gb ofram ain't that much. (ok, sound card also costs about 100mb ram in my setup, but that's another story).

I don't think we'll upgrade graphics soon (no money) so the card we'll chose will have to be the best of the two, but you got a point with PCIe being better for the future nonetheless.

In that case, I'll only have to place the sound card into this PC. (I hope it's got 2 free PCI slots...hmmm)

They're both 3Ghz (1mb cache) 1Gb ram dell dimensions (one a 4700, one a 5100 IIRC) so I think that they're very comparable otherwise. Though I must say I don't remember all the details about the ram and processors, but as far as I understood it was the real deal, maybe not the killer(price)workstation stuff, but not celeron and the like stripped down things.

oh btw I think both cards are dx9 shader model 2 capable, so on that front no arguments to be found .

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btw do note that the x600 is not a pro or anything version, just x600 hypermemory (128 native, 128 shared as far as I know). I repeat this because there is a significant performance difference with other versions.

Question is though: how does this variant compare to the radeon 9800 pro 128.

both are the real ati cards, no 3rd party cards such as Hercules and the like.

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Yeah, I know. Still, the x600 is likely to outperform the 9800. If you want specifics, you can and should check Tom's Hardware for benchmarks.

Even if the 9800 outperformed the x600, I would still recommend the x600. Both because the AGP slot is a (slight) bottleneck compared to PCI-e, and that if anything at all needs upgrading or breaks on the AGP mobo, your options will be very limited. Odds are you'd end up having to buy a new(er) machine anyway, and replace everything but the hard drives.

You're far better off with the PCI-e motherboard, regardless of what video card you put into it. But regardless, I think you'll find the x600, even with the nerfed memory, will be more capable than the 9800.

Another option you have is running 3dmarks on both PCs, with identical settings, and measuring the difference.

__________________
[Dr. Horrible]___________________________[Penny]
Listen close to everybody's heart________And you believe there's good in everybody's heart
And hear that breaking sound_____________Keep it safe and sound
Hopes and dreams are shattering apart____With hope you can do your part
And crashing to the ground_______________To turn a life around

Speaking, if you do grab 3dmarks, you'll want 3DMark05 and/or 3DMark03. '06 works, but it's really beefy. Your cards will have a hard time with '06.

__________________
[Dr. Horrible]___________________________[Penny]
Listen close to everybody's heart________And you believe there's good in everybody's heart
And hear that breaking sound_____________Keep it safe and sound
Hopes and dreams are shattering apart____With hope you can do your part
And crashing to the ground_______________To turn a life around

Thanks for the benchmark links, I looked all day for them but didn't find them.

I thought about running benchmarks myself, but I don't want to fiddle on the other PC too much (not mine, yet ) and mine is not stable enough to run them at the moment...

I'll check the benchmark results out.

If it is already a very close call in performance or even better to keep the X600, I'll certainly keep that one. It's newer, the mobo is newer and PCIe, it has room for the sound card, and comes in a far nicer, quiter and easier to open case, AND doesn't have known PSU issues which the other one has. Plus it's got better dvd writer and cd writer .

Thanks for your help. Without test results, I really couldn't know whether an old top card would still outperform a new middle of the road card.

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hmmm, small disappointment: I find neither card on tom's hardware...

edit: indirectly I found the 9800 pro and a x600 but not mine, but no comparable benchmark tests. I guess i will have to run 3dmark 2005 to check both and see which one performs best...

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Are not both Dell Dimension PCs, the 4700 and 5100 series, equipped with one PCIe x16 slot? I downloaded the user manuals for both series and I do not see an AGP slot on either motherboard.

Both machines feature a 305W PSU, with the Dimension 5100 series having a higher heat dissipation rating. Probably the best PSU upgrade for the 4700 and 5100 series would be the PC Power & Cooling Silencer 470 Dell. That and a beefy surge protector in your new apartment with grounded mains should resolve most power-related stability issues.

Also, the 4700 series has four diagnostic lights on the back panel, while the 5100 series diagnostic lights are on the front panel.

I think one actually is a 4600 instead of 4700, I'm not sure but I am sure that it does not have PCI-e but agp instead. So that would make it a 4600. And I am sure that the other one is a 5100 with PCI-e, as I'm working on that one right now .

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If it is a 4600 series PC, then it has an AGP 8X slot. One variant has an Integrated Intel 865G Extreme Graphics controller on the motherboard in addition to an AGP 8X slot. And you might want to check, but I think the 4600 series was equipped with a Pentium 4 2.8 GHz CPU.

The 4600 series has a 250W power supply, which in my opinion is inadequate for the power demands of a Radeon 9800 Pro AGP 8X video card. ATI recommends a 300W or greater PSU. A rough estimate using the eXtreme Power Supply Calculator Lite v2.5, a 4600 series with a Radeon 9800 Pro card, allowing a 20% overhead to compensate for electrolytic capacitor aging, would require a PSU that could deliver a peak output of 277W (300W if you have two optical drives, such as a DVD-ROM and a CD-RW drive). A Soundblaster sound card would draw about 8 additional watts.

The PC Power & Cooling Silencer 410 Dell-2 is the premium replacement PSU for the 4600 series.

Having the PC right next to me ow, I'm sure it is a 4600. You could choose from a number of processors, this one has a 3.0GHz 1mb L2 cache HT. I'm quite sure the mobo also has onboard sound and graphics (disabled now, of course).

250W indeed is not much. I'll remove all dust and in the end also the sound card. That should easen the power demnds (8W sound card + less fan action).

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3dmark05 (demo) results of the dimension 4600 with ati radeon 9800pro 128:

gpu slowest 1218, fastest 3128, 4009 cpu marks

I'll try to test the x600 dimension 5100 in a few days, I'm curious how it compares!

This 4600/radeon9800pro system of mine is at about 1/3rd of all systems tested (which is still quite ok, given it's over 3 years old). However compared to similar configs, my PC ranks number 1. And that for a PC which hasn't been overclocked, hasn't been "tuned", is stock parts only and hasn't seen a format or other cleaning in over 3 years. Furthermore, it has an old, old gfx driver because that one was stable and newer ones weren't.

Moral of the story: the quite identical dimension 5100/x600 'd better have a good day to outperform this system, but I hope it does.

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Don't take too much stock in the rankings. They've probably stopped collecting stats for that version when they went to the next.

What's important is the specific 3d marks score in direct comparison with your other box.

__________________
[Dr. Horrible]___________________________[Penny]
Listen close to everybody's heart________And you believe there's good in everybody's heart
And hear that breaking sound_____________Keep it safe and sound
Hopes and dreams are shattering apart____With hope you can do your part
And crashing to the ground_______________To turn a life around

Yes, the 1 on 1 comparison with the other PC is indeed the reason I do this benchmark test.

But the database had at least 15 3dmark05 test results of PC with "identical" specs as mine (same amount of ram, same processor, same gfx card), and mine got the best score. Given the config of my system still is original and the xp/dx/driver versions I use are some years old, it's still relevant (I'm not comparing 2007 hardware or drivers to 2003 hardware or drivers).

Anyway, I'll let you know the results of the other box in a few days time! (hopefully, if it can run 3dmark05).

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I've located more information on the PSU for the Dell Dimension 4600 series from the Service Manual. The Technical Overview reveals that the unit's maximum +12V DC output is 14A. Its continuous output is probably about 10A. The maximum output for the +5V and +3.3V rails is 22A and 18A, respectively. This information should be on a sticker on the PSU.

My old AMD Athlon XP 2000+ PC from late 2002 was powered by a cheap Allied 350W PSU that came with a Apex SuperCase TU-124 case, providing a maximum DC output of 12A on the +12V rail, 35A on the +5V rail and 24A on the +3.3V rail. The PSU happily powered an Asus GeForce4 Ti 4200 V8420 128MB AGP video card for about 2½ years before the +5V rail went bad. I replaced it with a higher-quality Cooler Master Real Power RS-450-ACLY, a 450W PSU with continuous DC output of 12A on +12V1 and 10A on +12V2. At the same time, I replaced the video card with an Asus GeForce 6600 N6600/TD 256MB. The 6600 is nearly twice as fast as the 4200. The system has always been connected to an UPS, which is plugged into a surge protector that is replaced yearly. I then gave the PC to my nephew and it is currently being used as an honorable office PC (no games).

I don't expect the ATI Radeon X600 PCIe card in the Dell Dimension 5100 to perform significantly better than the ATI Radeon 9800 Pro, which is a fine AGP card, especially if it's a model with a memory bus width of 256 bits, not 128 bits. The X600 PCIe is essentially a PCIe version of the Radeon 9600 AGP.

I think the X600 uses slightly less power. Given that the 5100 is newer, has a PCIe slot and a 305W PSU, I would go with the 5100.

Well, the 4600 seems stable again with the dust removed, so that problem is gone. We'll keep the 5100 because of upgradeability and nicer case (ram, cpu and HDD being identical to the 4600), but if its graphics card performs really bad compared to the radeon9800, we may have to reconsider. I'll let you know in a few days. (both PC's are not located in the same country )

I'm quite sure I've got the 256 bit bus 9800pro version. The x600 would have 128 bits bus, but of course with pcie twice the bus speed...should be about the same . Both have 128mb onboard memory, but the x600 can also steal another 128 from the ram.

I'm curious how it compares in 3dmark, but I assume it's a rather close call.

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A benchmarking of an ATI Radeon X600 XT on a PC with 1GB of RAM and an Intel 3.0 GHz 630 CPU produced a 3DMark05 score of 1950. Its AquaMark3 score was 34349 (GFX: 4254; CPU: 8921).

My latest AquaMark3 score with an AMD Athlon 64 4000+ 2.4 GHz CPU and a Nvidia GeForce 7950GT was 79439 (GFX: 13023; CPU: 10184).

1950?

Not terrible, though hardly great. I will say this though - that handily outscores my old 128mb Radeon 9700pro (which is somewhat close to the 9800).

My current setup is a GeForce Go 7950GTX, with a T7600 C2D, which scores about 9200 on 3dmark05, give or take a couple hundred...