Queen and Duke mark anniversary - Page 2

HenrikOlsen · #31 (**permalink**) 20-November-2007, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadme

The Pope?

They're Anglican (Church of England).

You must mean the Archbishop of Canterbury, dear.

Timeline:
1521 Pope makes Henry VIII Defender of the faith
1533 Pope excommunicates Henry and the Anglican church is started.

You should learn your history, dear.

Gillianren · #32 (**permalink**) 20-November-2007, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadme

The Pope?

They're Anglican (Church of England).

You must mean the Archbishop of Canterbury, dear.

The Archbishop of Canterbury is under the Queen of England in that particular hierarchy and has been since Henry's Great Matter. In that sense, I suppose Henry could've made the Archbishop give him any title he wanted. However, Henry VIII wrote a lengthy, scholarly treatise about exactly what was wrong with everything Luther said--in Latin, yet--and the Pope (Leo X, and I did have to look that bit up), who was passing around titles of that nature to monarchs like they were candy (hence Their Most Catholic Majesties Ferdinand and Isabella), gave "Defender of the Faith" to Henry.

There was, after all, a time when there were no Protestants, dear.

Quote:

As for the Brit Monarchy...you guys can have them. I'm glad no family or person here in the States is able to retain office indefinitely.

To be fair, that implies that anyone in the monarchy has any real power. Which they haven't since . . . well, I suppose that depends on how you define "real power," really. Certainly even my beloved Elizabeth I had to depend on Parliament for some things--and didn't her father hate that!

Gillianren · #33 (**permalink**) 20-November-2007, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dhd40

Long before the pope´s, or her father´s divorce?

Actually, a later Pope (Sixtus V?) said that if he and Elizabeth could've had children, they would've ruled the world.

HenrikOlsen · #34 (**permalink**) 20-November-2007, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gillianren

There was, after all, a time when there were no Protestants, dear.

Careful about correcting an error with another one

The Anglican Church is not protestant, they're basically catholic, but with the king(queen) on top instead of the pope.
Which incidentally is what puts the Bishop of Canterbury under the Monarch.

The Supreme Canuck · #35 (**permalink**) 20-November-2007, 08:04 PM

Actually, that depends on who you ask. In its formative years (er... decades...) the Church of England moved back and forth between Protestantism and Catholicism. So you have a tradition of both. So while it certainly isn't as radically Protestant as, say, Lutheranism, it can't be called truly Catholic, either.

Gillianren · #36 (**permalink**) 20-November-2007, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HenrikOlsen

Careful about correcting an error with another one

The Anglican Church is not protestant, they're basically catholic, but with the king(queen) on top instead of the pope.
Which incidentally is what puts the Bishop of Canterbury under the Monarch.

The Catholics consider them Protestant! To the Catholic perspective (and I was one!), anyone whose faith split from the Catholic Church in that whole post-Luther hoo-ha is a Protestant. Other Protestants may not consider themselves as such, but since when has the Catholic Church cared?

Actually, all of this is why Sir Thomas More is a Catholic saint and martyr; he refused to acknowledge Henry as head of the Church of England, the Divorce as legal, and Elizabeth as legitimate. (He's got pretty amusing last, or almost last--I can't remember which--words, too; he moved his beard out of the way of the ax because he said it had committed no fault.)

JohnD · #37 (**permalink**) 20-November-2007, 09:15 PM

Sorry Anton!
Damburger is the guilty party.
Lt.Drebin! Arrest that malfeancer!

My favourite story about Good Queen Bess:
A courtier, the Earl of Oxford -ahem - broke wind during a conversation with Her Maj.
Mortified, he exiled himself to his country estates for years.
Eventually the Kind Queen missed him, enquired and learning of his situation invited him back to Court.
The noble arrived and was announced.
"Ah! Your Grace! You are thrice welcome!", said the Queen.
"Be of comfort - we have quite forgot the fart!"

JOhn

filrabat · #38 (**permalink**) 20-November-2007, 09:20 PM

Anglicans, Catholic or Protestant?

Depends on how you look at it. Here in the USA, we have no Church of England (since we gained our independence, at least), but we do have the Episcopal Church, which I think (but not 100% sure) recognizes Canterbury's authority.

Ceremonially, they do resemble Catholics to a considerable degree. I think many articles of doctrine from the Roman Catholic church still exist in the Episcopal Church. Unlike many Protestant denominations (Lutheran, Presbyrterian, and so forth), the split did not happen over deep substantive theological disputes, but merely over the Pope's refusal to annul Henry XIII's marriage. So, as I understand it, Henry declared himself head of the English Church, and excommunicated the Pope, who did likewise (don't know who excom'd who first). In that sense, the Anglican Church is not that "Protestant".

However, as you'd expect after a few centuries of non-alegiance to Rome, they drifted a bit further doctrinally from Rome. Anglican and Episcopal preachers are allowed to marry, and there are even female priests in both. Furthermore, the US Episcopal Church is considered a socially liberal denomination, for instance they are lenient about abortion and gay rights. In fact, one Episcopal Diocese in the state of New Hampshire made a bishop of a openly gay (though this is definitely NOT without controversy, as this could well lead to the US Episcopal church splitting in two over this issue). I can't imagine this happening in the Catholic Church (as far as I know, at least).

Even in this case, the Episcopal/Anglican church cannot be said to be Protestant in the same way the Lutherans, Presbyrterians, Methodists/Weslyans and especially the more conservative US religious denominations are (e.g. Southern Baptist Convention, Assemblies of God, various Pentacostal churches, the conservative non-denominational ones).

captain swoop · #39 (**permalink**) 20-November-2007, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gillianren

I was going to say, wasn't it the Duke of Windsor who was the Nazi sympathizer?

the Queens Uncle, he would have been Edward the VIII but Abdicated the throne.

The name Windsor was taken in the First World War when it was thought a Germanic name wasn't really appropriate. Queen Victoria the Kaisers Aunt, His mother was British Royalty. It was a tangled web.

Doodler · #40 (**permalink**) 20-November-2007, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filrabat

Anglicans, Catholic or Protestant?

Depends on how you look at it. Here in the USA, we have no Church of England (since we gained our independence, at least), but we do have the Episcopal Church, which I think (but not 100% sure) recognizes Canterbury's authority.

Ceremonially, they do resemble Catholics to a considerable degree. I think many articles of doctrine from the Roman Catholic church still exist in the Episcopal Church. Unlike many Protestant denominations (Lutheran, Presbyrterian, and so forth), the split did not happen over deep substantive theological disputes, but merely over the Pope's refusal to annul Henry XIII's marriage. So, as I understand it, Henry declared himself head of the English Church, and excommunicated the Pope, who did likewise (don't know who excom'd who first). In that sense, the Anglican Church is not that "Protestant".

However, as you'd expect after a few centuries of non-alegiance to Rome, they drifted a bit further doctrinally from Rome. Anglican and Episcopal preachers are allowed to marry, and there are even female priests in both. Furthermore, the US Episcopal Church is considered a socially liberal denomination, for instance they are lenient about abortion and gay rights. In fact, one Episcopal Diocese in the state of New Hampshire made a bishop of a openly gay (though this is definitely NOT without controversy, as this could well lead to the US Episcopal church splitting in two over this issue). I can't imagine this happening in the Catholic Church (as far as I know, at least).

Even in this case, the Episcopal/Anglican church cannot be said to be Protestant in the same way the Lutherans, Presbyrterians, Methodists/Weslyans and especially the more conservative US religious denominations are (e.g. Southern Baptist Convention, Assemblies of God, various Pentacostal churches, the conservative non-denominational ones).

*looks at his denominational scorecard*

Somehow, I don't think this is what the old geezer meant by "be fruitful and multiply"...

filrabat · #41 (**permalink**) 20-November-2007, 09:34 PM

Sorry, forgive me for not thinking, but..

Congratulations and Happy 60th, Your Royal Highness and [what do you call her husband]. Oh, anyway, your marriage itself is quite an accomplishment.

(hey, I'm "just" some "bloke" from way out in Middle America, after all) [grins a toothy grin]

KaiYeves · #42 (**permalink**) 20-November-2007, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Anglicans, Catholic or Protestant?

What's it matter, they're all Christians and it was one church before the Great Schism. After that, things have never stopped breaking appart.

Celestial Mechanic · #43 (**permalink**) 20-November-2007, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captain swoop

[Snip!] The name Windsor was taken in the First World War when it was thought a Germanic name wasn't really appropriate. Queen Victoria the Kaiser's Aunt, His mother was British Royalty. It was a tangled web.

If I'm not mistaken, Queen Victoria was Kaiser Wilhelm II's grandmother. Tsar Nicholas II was another grandson of hers. What a tangled web!

Lianachan · #44 (**permalink**) 20-November-2007, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Mechanic

If I'm not mistaken, Queen Victoria was Kaiser Wilhelm II's grandmother. Tsar Nicholas II was another grandson of hers. What a tangled web!

European monarchy is, and has been for centuries, an incestuous stramash.

captain swoop · #45 (**permalink**) 20-November-2007, 10:48 PM

Well, you can't marry below your class, it's like Celebs, they live in an equaly closed world so they just marry each other, usualy several times.

Gillianren · #46 (**permalink**) 20-November-2007, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filrabat

. . . but merely over the Pope's refusal to annul Henry XIII's marriage.

I think you've got your Roman numerals mixed up, there! VIII is, so far as I can remember, the highest number any English monarch (or British, for the later ones!) gets after their name, and that's good ol' Henry himself, likewise the aforementioned Edward. (Though I'm constantly getting the Edwards screwed up; I inevitably refer to them as "Edward the Somethingth.")

Quote:

So, as I understand it, Henry declared himself head of the English Church, and excommunicated the Pope, who did likewise (don't know who excom'd who first). In that sense, the Anglican Church is not that "Protestant".

Henry was excommunicated first. Actually, I don't recall reading that Henry VIII excommunicated the Pope, largely because--since the Pope wasn't in England--there was no point to it. However, there are many pointed references to the Pope in writings of the time--and for decades after that!--as "the Bishop of Rome," since the Pope's authority over all branches of the faith was one of the reasons for the split.

Quote:

Even in this case, the Episcopal/Anglican church cannot be said to be Protestant in the same way the Lutherans, Presbyrterians, Methodists/Weslyans and especially the more conservative US religious denominations are (e.g. Southern Baptist Convention, Assemblies of God, various Pentacostal churches, the conservative non-denominational ones).

No, you're right. However, there is a certain logic to giving them all the same label. The various . . . schisms? sects? At any rate, they were all indeed formed in protest to some aspect of Catholic dogma. Unlike the Catholic/Orthodox schism, wherein each claims that the other did the splitting, it's quite obvious where the splits were here--even if it's "But I don't wanna be married to her anymore!"

Doodler · #47 (**permalink**) 20-November-2007, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captain swoop

Well, you can't marry below your class, it's like Celebs, they live in an equaly closed world so they just marry each other, usualy several times.

Interesting that in the US, we usually associate those relationships with the opposite end of the social spectrum...

Of course, those the family trees that branch in the opposite direction. Their's looks more like a damned cat's cradle.

Lianachan · #48 (**permalink**) 20-November-2007, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captain swoop

Well, you can't marry below your class, it's like Celebs, they live in an equaly closed world so they just marry each other, usualy several times.

At least the celebrity genetic pool gets fresh water added sometimes, by the addition of new celebrities and existing ones buying third world children.