No. We did.
Or rather an employee of the Dutch West India Company, for goods valued at 60 guilders. Which was a lot of money.
Alas Mr. Minuit forgot to ask if the sellers actually owned the island. The colony ended up at war with the real inhabitants.

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Hello Halcyon,

This is interesting. You mean Indians actually sold something that wasn't theirs?

I don't think native Americans had the concept of land ownership. When settlers tried to settle and use the land for agriculture and ranching Indians would raid them. I know the Apache and Comanche in the southwest would 'trade' with the ranchers and the ranchers pretty much had to accept the deals or they would get raided.

Those tribes were nomadic and would travel up into Canada and down to central America in large numbers.

The Lakota are attempting insurrection. I think they'll fail.

Well, if the Lakota secede, that should help clear up the problem a lot of people have about the difference between Dakota and Lakota.

For the people in Rapid City it probably can't happen soon enough.

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You are the one demonstrating not understanding the concept.
The supposed 'bead story' has a premise behind it. The indians knew that the land belonged to the land- it didn't belong to a person. It was used by ALL the life, plants animals and human. How could a person own it or sell it? To them, the idea was foreign and absurd.
Following quote; Bold Mine:
Is this a racial slur? Once again, I see yet another post in this thread in which the post is worded in a disgusting manner.

You act as though the Lakota Tribe has no concept of modern living.
You quickly forget that we were the raiders and conquerers.

Do you still call them "savages" too? Do you avoid folks of native american ancestry for fear they might scalp you?

What they are doing is nothing new. Your attitude suggest that the Berlin Wall should never have come down, that the Russians should never have overthrown the USSR etc etc etc.
This is a part of all our history- through out time and throughout nations.

One of your previous posts compared it to knocking on a door to borrow the gun. Not So. At All.
We were the ones who came knocking- signed empty treaties and made broken promises. We knocked and borrowed the gun.

Who are you including in that "we"? I'd think that very few people alive today were involved in raiding and conquering Lakota lands--and if they were, the Lakota should be pushing for war crimes trials, etc.

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Bold Mine:
Exactly but they are not doing these things.

They are doing what our ancestors did in the Revolution. What the Russians did in their many and most recent too revolutions- And I can admire that as an American.

Saying, "My ancestors did it - I didn't" is to not acknowledge the sins of the father- to not honorably pay your fathers debts.
Do you know that my own father left his college debts on me? Should I not pay them? The law will see it differently if I try to claim " 'Taint mine!"
I didn't write the constitution- Should I honor it?
I didn't fight in World War Two- should I honor the end product?
Should England claim that we are citizens of great Britain because none of us personally fought in the revolution and so it doesn't count anymore?

Our ancestors flooded in and took this land- But that is "ok" with us because we now live here. We didn't do it. We will enjoy it though.
Well, then it's "ok" with me that they try to get it back.

coming after the clear statement:

demonstrates a wild, untamed and unpolished, and somewhat rude dismissal of what has already been said. The attempt to change the subject by forming opinions for me like:
again ignores what was said:
I might not have been clear so I'll restate my position. The Lakota are attempting to dismantle the legal structure of the United States using that same legal structure. They are using an entity to damage that entity. That's absurd. They are attempting to raid property. I think they will fail. Like most things the more that happens the more clear the outcome is. We'll see.

Indian raids are taking on a different form these days. Times do change. They assimilated the western concept of land ownership. That's clear by their actions.

Finally we agree. I don't think of it as just the Revolution; I think in terms of 'The Revolutionary War'. Colonists committed acts of treason against the established authority at the time that were construed acts of war. It was a war as this is. I don't see what the Lakota are doing as any different. I don't wish them luck and also I think they'll fail.

Really? I'm not quite so sure of this... Let's take a look...

Bold Mine:

Indian raids eh? Now THEY are raiding US?! You went right back to the very thing you complained about in my last post... and justified what I asked... So I guess you aren't afraid of them scalping you- they assimilated Western Culture and will now... What? Take back what we took from them? Killed their people for?
Incidentally- It was the White Man introduced scalping- offering payment per scalp. I guess they assimilated that as well.

Did a Native American wrong you in a past life?

I'm not quite so sure that I'm failing to understand your meaning...

Three posts from you now, imply a pretty clear animosity toward Native Americans.

Now, if I'm wrong on this count- feel free to clarify your statements. Otherwise- I will assign to your words the intentions that you have implied.

I would prefer you address these- because the heat can build between our posts rather quickly if our discussion is tainted by your seeming animosity toward Indians
Lastly... They are not using a legal structure to dismantle a legal structure.
Without an army to wage war openly, they are using the existing structure in their favor. What legal structure are they trying to dismantle?

If I write my congressperson, legally, along with a great many other people, and we all agree to take a series of laws to court to determine whether or not those laws are 'just'... And the Supreme Court rules they are unjust...
Did we commit an absurdity by dismantling a legal structure with a legal structure?

I ask again- would an army please you? Would that seem less absurd to you?

If you take a man to court- to demonstrate that he legally violated your agreements with him- is that absurd?
Would you prefer to take it to fists instead of court? Don't misunderstand- I don't mind fists in the least- in fact I prefer it.
It's faster than the tedious courts- and much less expensive and stressful. Usually more effective too. Nothing like a good pounding to get a man to see reason.
But the Lakota fist is not strong enough to take on the US government. So they use the Pen which is hailed as mighty than the Sword- and you call it absurd?

They have legally used the structure to demonstrate what they want, and what the world needs to see. They went about it in the manner that the modern world perceives as 'proper.' <shrug>

It was high time - and I don't know what the effect or result will be- Most likely- the US government will squash their efforts and the result will not be in favor of the Lakota...

However, the effort is warranted- in the same spirit as all our ancestors- and it's due. I, for one, am excited simply to SEE them doing this. And proud of my own heritage.

You keep trying to change the subject by putting words into my points. Thinking people see the futility in that tactic.

In this statement- you discredit our forefathers, our national history, our constitution and the very concept that our oppressed people fought so hard to uphold.

You make it sound like Authority is perfection that should never be put in its place.
I disagree . Harshly.

As a US Army soldier- I find this statement most disturbing. I'll fight for you on the battlefield- I'll defend your right to say it. But that doesn't mean I won't find it deeply disturbing.

It must be nice to reap the benefits- living in a land with such a constitution... Enjoying the freedom and the right to earn your income, the right to pay much less in taxes, the right to be free and independent in this nation...
While believing those that poured their blood on the ground to give that to you were treasonous traitors...

I have repeated your words back to you and described the fallacies within them.

Doing so does require some thought- So I think... I qualify as a 'thinking person.'

The British may have had no right to put down the Thugs and the Poisoners in India, but it benefited the next generation of Indians.

The slave traders had no right to cart off millions of Africans to slavery on the plantations, but the next generation of African-Americans were better off than if they'd stayed in Africa.

The Amerindian tribes used to sally forth and scalp their neighbouring tribes with abandon for 1000 years. The US cavalry stopped that with their swords, ultimately benefiting the next generation of Amerindians; those who survived that is!

Still in some circles today "might makes right" and "the end justifies the means". Reductio in absurdum, the claim is made that the State of Israel, to the benef of the Jewish People, only exists today because of Adolf Hitler!

With hindsight, will the white man's impositions versus his benefits figure into the judgements and calculations of it all? Or is it specious?

More like fallous.

This misconception forgets to factor in modernism- and attributes qualities to a race- that don't exist.

Also you have your facts all wrong... Talking about Indians running around scalping eachother... and looking at the severe statistics... Whether or not the American indians as a TOTAL benefited from the US Cavlary is very very debatable...

Perhaps that generation hasn't arisen yet...


How foolish of us to resist the Axis Powers in WWII... If only we would have known we would have benefitted from it. After who knows how many generations...

i think this thread has devolved into a urinating contest, and the contestants are pointing straight into the wind.
but it is entertaining...

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The.. Best.. Thread..Ever...

Maybe I'll turn toward your direction then

How so wrong this statement truly is! They learned scalping from the white men (the French, if I remember my history correctly).

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