Boy, talk about going too far. You know Doodler, not every environmentalist is a Luddite, in fact, the vast majority are not. I don't think anyone here has said all technology is bad and all humans are evil. The world isn't all black and white, or in this case green and uh.. red (the compliment to green).

And does EVERY thread on the environment have to become an attack on global warming? You know Greenfeather, I'm not burnt out on protecting the environment, but I am pretty burnt out on even mentioning it on BAUT. That's why, for the most part, I try to avoid AGW threads.

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At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009

A problem seems to be that many people think of the environment as something separate from themselves.

It is however not there for our entertainment purposes only.
It is our habitat. We need it for our survival.

Only an idiot species befouls it's own nest.

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Join the Illuminati

Yeah, I just wrote that little post to "vent" and "let off steam". (PUN!!!) I'm really all done talking about it now.

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"I am happy to report that once again the universe is doing just great, thank you, purring with perfection, ever-changing same as always. Light is still cruising along at 186,000 miles per second, and the expanding universe shows no signs of contracting. At this rate, it won't be long before they'll have to let the photon belt out another notch."
Swami Beyondananda's 2007 State of the Universe address

Just make sure your musical ambitions are of the acoustic variety!

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Spock Jenkins of the Vulcan Jenkins'.

Fear not. Things are not as bad as they appear.

There's a volcano brewing in Ecuador, so that should help with the global warming problem.

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"It was a crime of passion! Not premeditated dentistry!"

Interesting related story in the paper, the
streets of Naples, Italy, are filling with
household rubbish as the landfills are full!
Well Gosh! have they never heard of planning,
anticipation? Or is it a secret European
experiment to see if a community will adjust
living habits with shock treatment?
Watch this (full-up) space!

Black...as in oil. Blood of industry.

I'm sure not all are Luddite, Swift, I'm positively sure of it. Even I'm happy to see some of the more environmentally friendly technologies emerging so quickly now. From my end, it might finally shut some of the morer obnoxious howler monkeys of the green movement up...for a few minutes. I'm sure given time, they'll find something else humans do that'll rile them back up. Fanatics are all the same, despite their causes. There is no end to the crusade, its how they feel important in a world that wouldn't otherwise give a damn what they think.

If Greenfeather were someone who simply chose, for herself, to live within a minimally impacting lifestyle with respect to the environment, I'd respect her completely. Instead, she made herself an enviro-evangelical. She proselytized her beliefs in the face of everyone she could force to listen. A Phelpsian screamer with a treehugger twist. A willing servant of the Green Inquisiton.

If it were in matters related to human health and survival, I could respect their cause more as well, but its not. Its about limiting humans from undermining their view of how the world should ideally be, even if its not the only ideal outcome for the world. They fight climate change, without establishing whether the changed climate would be unviable for human life. They scream about ice caps melting, without establishing that iceless polar caps are in some way dangerous to humans. They scream about environmental change simply because people don't like change. Pardon me for tapping this myth for an analogy, but they cry because they don't want to be cast out of their perceived Garden of Eden to fend for themselves in an unknown world. They're comfortable and that which makes them uncomfortable upsets them.

I find fear like this to be nothing I sympathize with. I expect it from the animals, not truly sentient humans.

Poor little avatar world...

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"If you think the LHC will create black holes, you might as well believe Hobbits are at the bottom of your garden."- Dr. Mike Inglis
Rovers forever! - ToSeek
"Carl Sagan sent a message to ET,
Neil Armstrong walked in the Sea of Tranquility
Steve Squyers built Spirit and Opportunity
Dan Haylen upchucked in zero gravity." -Brent Simon, The Space Camp Song

Doodler, you got it all wrong.

Informing people of a mistake they are making isn't "Screeching at whoever you can force to listen."

People need to wake up. And they don't want to.

People in general don't care about what the reality is. They want to believe what they want to believe.

There are a number of reasons why environmentalists see so little change. One of these is that virtually all of the changes that environmentalists want cost more money than the less environmentally friendly alternatives:

• Solar Power: more expensive than fossil fuels
• Wind Power: more expensive than fossil fuels
• Recycling: more expensive than just sending everything to one landfill
• Carbon Sequestration: more expensive than just venting it
• Organic Farming: really, really expensive compared to regular food items
• Electric Cars: really expensive batteries for really miserable real-world performance

And on. And on. And on. Most people simply cannot afford to be more environmentally friendly in any serious way. Greenfeather even mentioned the lack of funds to buy a hybrid car, because... that's right, they're more expensive than their standard automotive counterparts (for very limited environmental gain). While creating better mass transit systems that people will actually use instead of driving everywhere may be better for the environment, it would mean completely destroying the current infrastructure that has cost trillions of dollars, and replacing it with something that would cost even more, for limited benefit to individuals.

Add to this the fact that nothing seems to make environmentalists happy:

• We can't have fossil fuels because of carbon emissions
• We can't have nuclear power because it's pure evil
• We can't have biofuels because they will take up valuable cropland and make food too expensive for poor people to afford
• We can't have wind turbines because birds smack into them, and Ted Kennedy doesn't like the way they look off the coast of Massachusetts
• We can't have solar power because putting solar panels in the desert will have an impact on desert life, and solar panels are made using environmentally unfriendly manufacturing processes
• We can't have hydroelectric power because it destroys natural habitats

So what the heck is everyone supposed to do exactly? Just curl up and die?

There's only so much "No, you can't do that," and "You're doing it wrong" that people can listen to before they just tune it out altogether.

EDIT TO ADD: If you want people to actually listen to you, try suggesting solutions that save people money or can make them money. If the environmentalists are so brilliant, then there should be ways to let companies make more money while helping the environment at the same time. Unfortunately, I only hear ideas for pouring more money into government programs and passing more restrictive laws telling people more things that they cannot do anymore. This will not make you liked by anyone.

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Before I get labeled as being completely against the environment, please note the following:

• I recycle as much as I can
• I do try to buy organic food items when possible, but it's expensive as all get-out
• I try to use reusable items (such as mugs instead of styrofoam cups) in lieu of disposable items
• I used to take mass transit to work; my current job makes this pretty unworkable
• I only drive a car that's the size I need, and not a land yacht
• I try to keep most of my electronics switched off using power strips, and keep them out of "sleep" mode

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Yes, they laughed at Einstein, but only because of his silly hairstyle; no one was actually laughing at his science.

I do all this stuff (except the 'organic food' thingy) just 'cuz I'm a stingy tightwad

Exactly. And so are most corporations.

Now imagine instead of telling a company, "YOU MUST REDUCE YOUR EMISSIONS," you walk into the board of directors and say, "Here's how you can save $10 million a year, and help the environment as a nice bonus." You're giving them real, immediate, tangible benefits for helping the environment. Just taxing them more and passing more laws that make their business more expensive to conduct won't help anything. If more environmentalists would think more like business people instead of childlike idealists, then more things would get done to help the environment.

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Yes, they laughed at Einstein, but only because of his silly hairstyle; no one was actually laughing at his science.

The construction industry is also taking note. I'm seeing the first wave of LEEDS buildings coming across the project table in the office.

Pardon my ignorance, but what does LEEDS stand for?

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Yes, they laughed at Einstein, but only because of his silly hairstyle; no one was actually laughing at his science.

That applies equally to both sides of this debate. The spindoctoring and model massaging on the part of the doomsayers has been less than impressive...

http://www.usgbc.org/DisplayPage.aspx?CMSPageID=222

Its actually LEED, my mistake. LEEDs is kind of a twist we gave it at the office. Its a series of criterion to reach specific certification levels of environmentally conscious design. Its only the guidelines, no enforcement weight is granted by it. Some jurisdictions and clients are jumping ahead and seeking specific levels of certification. I personally know BGE Home in Maryland goes for the LEED basic rating where possible, though the one we did for them recently could have gone silver if they had desired.

Cool. Thanks for the info.

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Yes, they laughed at Einstein, but only because of his silly hairstyle; no one was actually laughing at his science.

Yeah. I believe everyone here knows about the RoHS (Restrictions on Hazardous Substances) where companies are pushing on using environment friendly materials.

And we have the Ms . Earth Pageant .

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Jean
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"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing." - Albert Einsteiin

I recall about environmental laws established in California- in which the law stated that factories needed to return water to rivers etc in the same state in which they extracted it.

Often times, the water came out of the factories cleaner than it went in. The factories and refineries had to add pollutants to the water in order to meet the legal requirements.

Illegal dumping of cleaner water resulted in a hefty fine.