How local?

Garry oak, for instance: "The trees on the right are growing on south-facing slopes in the southern Olympic Mountains (South Fork Skokomish River). "

...only more so

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Fiction has to be plausible. Reality is under no such constraint.

I disagree about involvement with the supernatural.

Perhaps we currently lack the knowledge about the brain to determine exactly what causes a lot of these instincts and vibes, but I believe they are perfectly natural.

Part of the problem though is that we humans have stepped a bit over the bounds of nature.

Having created artificiality around us, our natural instincts may not be always as accurate.

The ones I can get to on the bus?

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

I believe that's the only reason why people can still take such nonsense seriously. Other equivalent things that have been easier to test, like mind-reading and telekinesis and astrology, have failed their tests. Only the ones that can't be tested can stand.

Just like with palm-reading and tea-leaf-reading and stories of people seeming to know ahead of time that something bad was about to happen and those folks who say they're giving members of their audiences messages from the dear departed, people remember when they were right about something, forget when they weren't or when no confirmation or refutation was available, invent stretchy excuses to put one in the "right" column that really belongs in the "wrong" or "unknown" column(s), and generally tend to act as if the information that's available to them meant more than it really does mean. I say I don't get these "vibes" and such, not because I don't observe the same stuff other people observe, but because I don't make up excess meaning to ascribe to it that isn't necessarily there.

Even presuming that there's legitimacy to the "vibes" concept, I might never receive such danger signals just because I'm not the kind of target that criminals look for, so I don't flip on their "attack-planning mode". (Imagine someone hardly over 5'8" weighing about 220 pounds without being fat; I occasionally get questions/comments like "How much do you benchpress?" and "You should work in security or law enforcement", from people who had just met me, based on my appearance. And I've studied martial arts and seem to have a pretty good physical awareness and smooth efficient movement, resulting in things like a tendency to catch falling objects before they hit the ground when other people wouldn't and the ability to walk on flat ice while others slip and fall. And I never leave home without a knife.) So I'd be far from an objective observer on that subject, if the people who would otherwise be sending these signals are selective about their targets.

So let's stick to the other popular kind of example in this thread. Everybody's heard of the "flirting" signals women supposedly send to men. I don't have any difficulty seeing how they move their hands and such; it's easy to spot the activities that we're always told must be "flirting". But that doesn't mean that the person who does those things really is flirting and does feel what it's supposed to mean she feels. Where most people seem to go wrong is treating the apparent implication as if it were a known (and often called "obvious") fact, rather than what it actually is, which is merely a suspicion, something they made up (a hypothesis at best). They seem to forget that any of those actions can just as easily be done by someone who is NOT flirting and does NOT feel anything in particular in that context, and that that possibility means that seeing those things being done actually tells you NOTHING. It could be deliberate faking, or it could be how she normally acts, or it could be a sign of no more than what kind of mood she's in at the moment... without more information, there's no basis for coming up with an explanation of the behavior, but people tend to latch on to one that they insist it "must be" no matter what, and then even to tell the rest of us that we should do so as well. (Doing so tends to have rather bad results when the guess was wrong, but apparently everyone's supposed to pretend that never happens and isn't possible, and/or to really believe that by forgetting all of the examples we've all seen.)

This reminds me of a recent conversation at another website, where I asked "Why doesn't party X do action Y?" because I didn't know X's reason for X's behavior and I wanted to know... but several people responded as if I had said "Party X should do action Y.". I hadn't; the connection from question to assertion was entirely made up by them, and even after the fact that they're two completely different sentences was pointed out to them, some still insisted on equating mine with the one they had made up, as if they just couldn't comprehend the difference. One person even still said "But you did state:" and followed that by a quote of my question, complete with the question mark at the end!

So vibe-reading and such are just another example of a bigger picture, one which comes up in a variety of different circumstances regarding a variety of potential sources of information and observations, but which I seem to be reminded of particularly often because it doesn't seem to be in my nature to do it myself (at least not nearly as much as seems to be normal). It's just a human tendency to (consciously or subconsciously) make up stuff and then fail (or refuse, or something like that) to distinguish the made-up ideas from actual information and facts.

You could be right. But don't forget that the ability to read non-verbal clues other people unconsciously transmit is a proven fact. Read the wiki on AS - or check out this link or this one .

The problem is that we will find ourselves into "invisible elf" territory if we go too far down the path of debating whether the pervasive anecdotal evidence of other 'abilities' present real, natural occurrances - or are just woo.

For myself, I trust my hunches - whether they're about people, or dark and scary woods. So far that trust has served me well. When I ignore my inner voice is when I find myself in trouble.

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Talent develops in quiet places, character in the full current of human life.
- Goethe

Jump in with both feet!
- Me, indulging my inner eight-year-old

*** *** ***

"Are you a mad-hatter that just types what he wishes, or have you actually any physics training?"
Occam's Ghost to Grant Hutchison.

I know enough people who believe in things like mind-reading, telekinesis or astrology to know that lack of proof does not disuade. Although I'm also sure that these same people have absolutley no clue that these things have ever failed any tests. It's not something most people talk about or that makes the news (Headline: "TK fails to move objects!")

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"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
"The Mayan symbol for "book" looks a lot like a triple hamburger, but I've never seen them claiming it as proof the Mayans had Big Macs." - KaiYeves
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

what makes skeptics think that everything that happens or exists, is scientifically testable?

I don't think this falls under the same category as the woo to which you refer. As was stated by Dyer Wolf - non verbal cues are very telling. Look at world champion poker players. There's a reason the same people seem to make the final round over and over in what should be a game of chance. They can read these cues and they can hide their own cues.

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Need a creative signature. Space for rent.

I agree or even just behaving in subtle ways to which you are not accustomed. Ever meet someone that has no sense of personal space; you step back, they step closer. Then there are people that stare you dead in the eye when you are conversing and never look away or rarely blink. I just don't see it as some supernatural ability to sum people up before you know them, we just have a habit of remember the times we were correct on our original assumption.
One particular time stands out in my mind where I will never know if I was right or wrong. It was after the Fl hurricanes in 2004 when there was a steady stream of roofers in my neighborhood. He may have been just being polite and knocking on my door to tell me ahead of time that the noises on my roof was him. I just suddenly felt incredibly vulnerable because I was just about to get in the shower when he knocked. All the suggestions could have been normal behaviors but to me it felt like he stood way too close to the door. I even positioned my foot behind the door to slow his possible attempt to force his way in. He also made a comment about my dog. He could have been just verbalizing his opinion but it threw me off, what he said, "Is that a pitbull?"
"No she's an American Bulldog."
"Oh, they still pack a mean bite, you must feel safe being home alone with her." Not once did I mention I was alone. Needless to say, my door was swiftly deadbolted, made sure all the windows were locked, and kept Bella in the bathroom with me. I also don't know if the shower prevented me from hearing him on my roof but I heard nothing. When I left the house, soon after, he was no where to be found. Then, the next day, a different company was in the area.

Glad to hear nothing happened.

Glad also to hear you had a bulldog in the house. Good dogs can be a great comfort.

Like you, I'm also not a fan of close talkers. However, I've had to learn to restrain my feelings about personal space since there are so many Indian and Pakistani employees working in my building. They clearly have a different cultural expectation of personal space, and will not hesitate to practically lean against me. Which is odd, because I am used to people giving me plenty of space.

I wonder why different cultures developed such radically different comfort zones.

__________________
Talent develops in quiet places, character in the full current of human life.
- Goethe

Jump in with both feet!
- Me, indulging my inner eight-year-old

*** *** ***

"Are you a mad-hatter that just types what he wishes, or have you actually any physics training?"
Occam's Ghost to Grant Hutchison.

That's a good question. You would think that our society would have a greater tendency to "invade" that personal space since our society seems to have less restraints on actual physical contact. I really only have the anecdotes of one person born in India to go on, but they seem to have more rules on when and how to actually make physical contact but yes, she and her husband stood uncomfortably close when speaking. Another odd behavior is that she was my landlord but never came to my house without bearing some kind of gift, Jewelery from India, stuffed animals for the kids, food, what ever it was, she always had an offering.

What makes you think it isn't?

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Closetgeek, that's an interesting example.

For one thing, it suggests that your vibes were a two-fold operation.

One was his behavior that may have been thoughtless but nonthreatening.
One was your fears of the suggestion.

I don't know either way but....


In plumbing I have to deal with these caveats all the time.

You maintain comfortable distance.

Never compliment a customers belongings or children

Keep your hands in sight at all times (Also try to keep the customer in sight at all times- it's hard to do though- they tend to wander off).

Never touch anything that doesn't have to do with the job at hand.

Meet their eyes. If they talk while you are working, you look like you're concentrating on the work (Even if it's routine and requires no concentration) then sit up as if taking a break, meet their eye and address them. They usually take the hint and refrain from idle chatter and stick to questions about the job.

Try not to play with their pets or get too friendly with their pets.

Of course there are obvious ones like don't light a cig or something on their property...


Contractors have it rough. Us blue collar guys tend to make lil ladies nervous. Visiting strangers in home makes people more nervous. Gotta take some pretty outlandish steps to keep people feeling comfortable and at ease because they tend to read into things even when they aren't really there.

I think you're onto something - because in many cases your own emotional state (feeling of security, etc.) will inform your perception of the situation.

It doesn't always have to be feelings of physical security, either.

I got bad vibes off of one of my many bosses during an initial meeting (my 'welcome aboard' happy hour) when during the course of 45 minutes of group conversation her apparent emotional state went through several radical changes in a short period of time.

My internal Robot apparently thought she was lost in space and cried out "Danger Will Robinson, Alarum, Alarum" every time I got near her for the next couple of months!

__________________
Talent develops in quiet places, character in the full current of human life.
- Goethe

Jump in with both feet!
- Me, indulging my inner eight-year-old

*** *** ***

"Are you a mad-hatter that just types what he wishes, or have you actually any physics training?"
Occam's Ghost to Grant Hutchison.

If it affects the real world, it is. If it doesn't affect the real world, it's useless.

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"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
"The Mayan symbol for "book" looks a lot like a triple hamburger, but I've never seen them claiming it as proof the Mayans had Big Macs." - KaiYeves
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

the fact that it doesn't seem to be testable?


I don't think that God and all that jazz, is going to climb into a testtube for the convenience of skeptics.

And thus we reach the limits of useful discussion on the topic.

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"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
"The Mayan symbol for "book" looks a lot like a triple hamburger, but I've never seen them claiming it as proof the Mayans had Big Macs." - KaiYeves
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

maybe, but I think that it is scientifically healthy to admit that not everything in reality may be able to be scientifically tested, and that absence of proof is not proof of absence.

I would say, 'not currently' testable.

Yes, true. But as we're discussing science, it's not as if we can comment usefully beyond saying "we have no data".

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"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
"The Mayan symbol for "book" looks a lot like a triple hamburger, but I've never seen them claiming it as proof the Mayans had Big Macs." - KaiYeves
"Distance doesn’t matter much in space, where if you just start a thing off with the right kind of shove, sooner or later it will get where you want it to go." -Frederik Pohl, Mining the Oort

Ah, but you're making one mistake. Use your God example, but lets make him our favorite invisible gnome ( I don't want this to be religious--I don't care who believes and doesn't and blah blah blah. Therefore names have been changed to protect the innocent). If said invisible gnome is real, then we can scientifically prove it--given enough evidence. It's testable...but perhaps not at the given time under the given circumstances.

Anything that's real can be scientifically proven, given the chance. Therefore your statement should be "Just because we can't currently test it, doesn't mean it's not there."

Until something can be tested and either proven or disproven, it's purely conjecture.

I know, that's more symantics than anything else.

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I'm like one of those idiot savants...well, except for the savant part.
Ignore enough evidence and anything can be called mysterious or unexplained.

As one of the people responsible for introducing the possibility of currently untestable causes for apparently observed events - let me cautiously suggest we refrain from discussing the 'larger unprovables' and focus on the OT.

We can, I think, continue to debate the cause and effect of people's feeling of 'vibes' about a person or situation - without violating the forum rules.

That said, I've found this an interesting topic and hope we have not quelled continued discourse on the subject.

__________________
Talent develops in quiet places, character in the full current of human life.
- Goethe

Jump in with both feet!
- Me, indulging my inner eight-year-old

*** *** ***

"Are you a mad-hatter that just types what he wishes, or have you actually any physics training?"
Occam's Ghost to Grant Hutchison.

Yeah, I guess we were pretty far off-topic eh?

Why is it that when imagining experiments to determine this kind of thing, I always picture some sort of "Candid Camera" type scenario? I guess that's because that show was, aside from oft very amusing, a great insight into pyschology...even if it wasn't all that scientific.

Anyway, candid camera on some kinda store owner or random person on the street, and see how they react to similar requests from different people (Young Skater punk, "creepy" ex-con looking guy, elderly man, attractive woman, etc). Wouldn't be a stretch to make it more controlled, and more "scientific". :shrug:

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I'm like one of those idiot savants...well, except for the savant part.
Ignore enough evidence and anything can be called mysterious or unexplained.

Until we have solid evidence, I think conjecture on this subject is the best we can do.

When I introduced the topic (For personal reasons) I was looking for ideas mostly. Some other points of view that I may not think of on my own.
It may not be currently scientifically testable, but at least it gives me more to work with than "mysterious unknown."

The Truman Show.

The next questions that pop into my mind :

Maybe we cannot test in a lab, but by being more observant and aware, how can we test it in the real world?

The other day, while idly standing in line at a counter, I was talking with another person on this subject. A guy about three times my size took a place behind me in line. I asked the guy behind me quite suddenly, "Hey man do I give you the creeps?"
He stepped back quickly and said, "Yes!"
The crowd started laughing and then we debated whether or not he got a case of the creeps before or after I put the idea into his head.

(I'm a little crazy I know...)

Well as far as testability, I think a good first step would be a hstorical accounting.

Basically ask a sample of say 30 people if they ever experinced these sort of 'Vibes'.

And to Detail them if they did.

If there is something to this I'd expect a break down of about 50/50.

If there is more that do then don't, then it should be more readily available to capture said events.

From that it should be determinable weather or not further study would be worth while.

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There is no problem that cannot be solved by a suitable application of high explosives - US Army Demolitions School

I just saw Hayley's comet, she waved, Said "why you always running in place? Even the man in the moon disappeared, Somewhere in the stratosphere" - Shinedown

http://worldsofothersuns.home.comcast.net/

I had thought about making this a poll, but the subject is so varied and diverse...

I figured I would end up with a whole lot of cheese and beer.

As the night guy in a hotel, I often have to run up to a room to deliver blankets or make the toilet stop making that noise (Seriously? No one has to jiggle the handle at home?). If I'm there on a delivery, I'll be sure to stand with the stuff I'm delivering between myself and the door to at least give the illusion of a barrier when they open the door.

If I have to go into the room for any reason, I'll flip that useless little latch thing over so the door can't be closed. My thinking there is that if someone in the room yells for help, help can get in without the key, and that way, it's not like I'm locking myself in the room with them. I'm not sure if that actually makes an impression though, and if it does, is it the right one?

There is also the self protection on my part from that. I don't want to be accused of something by the guest, and I'm hoping that having the door propped open would work in my favor.


Related to vibes, but different than the above. I tend to give off some sort of thing that seems to strongly affect women and gay men. They will tell me things, deeply personal things, for no apparent reason. If I were to steer the conversation just a bit, I could find out quite a lot that they would probably feel really badly about telling me after they have time to think about it. The effect as almost like talking to some one that's been drinking. Oddly, I've never seen it ever start to work on a guy that I wasn't sure (usually by their own admission) was gay.

I've had co-workers I didn't really know all that well come back and tell me about husband/boyfriend problems, or to get my opinion on an article on what men really want in some women's magazine. I asked one woman about it, because I knew her pretty well, and she said it was because I came across as "gender-neutral". Male enough to be a guy, but not male enough to be threatening, or something like that. I'm still not sure if I should have been insulted, but it became a running joke with us for about 2 years.

Now, I'm pretty good at feeling threats and scams, the girl that checked in the day be fore yesterday was a perfect example. She was going to be trouble, and I noted that the room needed to be watched in the log book. Turns out I was right. None of her actions later in the day matched the story she told me. What I'm not good at picking up on is any sort of romantic signal. I'm pretty sure I know why, but it's still pretty odd. I can't tell if I'm being flirted with at all. A touch on the arm is assumed to be something that person to everyone, she's probably just a touchy person.

Until there is an obvious physical or verbal signal that a woman has an interest in me in that way, I have no idea at all what's going on, but if she wanted to steal my wallet, odds are good that alarm bells would go off in head (well, stomach).

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I'm not evil.
An evil person would do the things I think up.

Cheese and beer...Yum.

Exactly.

In fact if I ever stop to assist a person on the side of the road- I approach with my cell phone out and first thing I ask is "Do you need a phone? Is there someone you can call?"

They always have a phone.

But it's reassurance when a stranger walks up.