I call foul! There is no way to put "round after round through the same hole" with a standard .22 rifle, even on a benchrest using "Match Grade" ammo. The inherent variations from shot to shot are much greater than that!

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Any day you wake up on "the right side of the dirt" is a good day.

T. Anderson

Funny how I raise bullying and the response is piling on and taunting.

You ask a number of interesting questions but since no-one else is asked these I see no reason to answer them. That and the fact you say I don't have to answer any questions in this forum. As for your ***, I don't care what happens to it, though having read the rules I didn't think we could say that.

You state that the navy has to be macho because it is men at sea, are there no women at sea?

I haven't been able to find a "Local girl rescued from white slavery in Kenya" headline in the Belgian media. Can you help me out with dates?

Geonuc, thank you for the welcome.

Big Bad Boo your father doesn't like you killing ants but he approves of violence against humans; he is obviously a complex man but I don't see your point.

I wasn't bullied at school, I was a bully but I grew up and stopped.

Tailhook, I'm a pacifist (I've explained what this means to me elsewhere), so I feel it's fair for me to respond to this:

It would help your argument be taken more seriously if you were to remove the chip from your shoulder and take a more reasonable tone. It would help your argument from a technical standpoint if you were to not engage in the strawman logical fallacy.

I consider your characterization of Don to be grossly inaccurate and quite unfair.

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In Fallout 3, 'happiness' is a warm junkyard dog and a loaded gun. It's mostly the loaded gun.
- Moose's one-line review.

"your going to regret that one. You are now a colonoscope...
- Chrissy, corrupting PraedSt's wish.

Ok, I hereby state that I am also interested in the answers to BigDon's question.

Also- you may want to write this down- on this forum, when one person asks a question people generally wait for the answer to come, instead of posting the same question over and over again. Because we like to be not annoying.

Just so you know.

You do realize that, even though there are women at sea, that the men outnumber them so totally and completely that it would be incorrect to say "The Navy is completely gender neutral and is neither macho nor ultra feminine"?

Yes. It makes complete sense that a former sex slave is going to come out to the media with her sob story, and that the people who saved her do not have the sense to keep their mouths shut for her safety.

Wow. Just wow. I.... no, can't say that. You are... no, not that either.

You simply astound me. Not in a good way, in case you're wondering.

Oh, and although I cannot speak for BigDon, I totally approve of violence against humans. The ones that deserve it.

And you can't say I got it from him, because I didn't grow up under his roof.


What do you call attacking BigDon's personality? Assuming he is one thing, even though you have no idea who he is?

I'd call that bullying. Time to start over in your "Days I Have Not Bullied Anyone" log.

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True. I think it's important to be able to laugh at one's self. But I also think it's important to not be fueled by an overwhelming amount of material.

Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.

-Dr. Seuss

"It's just a fact of life no one cares to mention,
She wasn't good, but she had good intentions."
- Lyle Lovett

So, what unit was that again?

After poring over a great many articles and such, I ended up with a hodge podge of confusing information

Simplifying, I took it to wiki here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_..._U.S._military
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_scandal

The military is currently and has been addressing the sexual assaults within. Of any kind.
The military tends to be harsh and strict- yu would rather face a civilian court than a military one
Triple the amount listed for corporate- than for the ENTIRE Military.

Tailhook,
I understand that you may have a personal take or a bone to pick.
But I think you are reflecting that into how you have been reading BigDon's posts.

I mentioned earlier about how some folks look at the darkness inside- and end up projecting that out onto others.

This is my question for you to mull over: Are you projecting what is inside to the external?
Do you truly have a basis for your claims?
Is it possible that you are allowing personal bias to influence your perceptions?
Does attacking BigDon and assigning malicious intent on his behalf seem appropriate behavior to you?

I'm asking you to think about all these questions. Confront them with yourself. I have no expectations on how you will answer any of them.

But I do know that I can do all the things I just listed in my questions. And I have done them. And I have justified them in my mind too.

I've confronted members here for whining about mystery links.
Sometimes I got carried away too, projecting more into what people said than what they actually said.
I may have been correct about some things even- But by acting like a tirading dijut- I directed attention away from good points I would make- by pushing a negative blanket over all my posts.


Food for thought. I would appreciate a response to my questions.

To be fair, your first post to this forum was aggressive. Aggression tends to be met with aggression. Had the tone of your first post been more diplomatic, and less accusatory, it might have been different. As I re-read the thread, I can't really help but notice that Don's first response to you was very civil. It was only his joking response to the question of another member that inspired the quote you use to cite the bullying.

Given your chosen name, and the subject of your post, I had the same questions. It's true that there is no rule in place to require anyone to answer a direct question here, but as this is a discussion forum, failing to answer things sort of defeats the purpose. And yes, when one person asks a question, most of the time, it's only asked that one time, as it's considered to be "on the table" until addressed or retracted.

Not exactly the point, really. When I was in Basic, we had one platoon of about 35 females, and 3 platoons totaling about 160 males. Some of the females were stronger and faster than many of the males. As long as everyone met the physical standards, they were fine.

In a situation where you have to count on the person beside you to do their job, and they fail, it doesn't just affect them, it affects everyone around them, possibly even in the whole unit. This isn't just for the military. It applies to any situation where more than one person in involved in a task. A lot of places have a higher "dead weight" tolerance than others. On a carrier, during the Cold War, was probably not the place for a lot of excess baggage. A person using resources and contributing nothing, or worse, screwing up, and causing far more problems than would have existed had they just not even been there, would be characterized as a parasite, and rightly so.

In your opening post, you asked if the discipline issues he talks about could be linked to other scandals in the Navy. Are you aware of the time frame? Don stated that his service ended around 1980 or so. He's also stated that many changes were going through at that time, and that his sister squadron was disbanded for discipline issues. That gives 10 years between his events and the scandal in '91 for things to change for better or worse.

I can say that the time I was in the Army in 1988, that sexual harassment was taken very seriously. So seriously that we had a female pass out from the heat and were told to leave her alone and not touch her. Two days later a male passed out in the same way, and we got yelled at for not helping him. The Drillies treated them both the same, but the other recruits were not allowed the option.

Do you seriously think you'd find one?
I worked at a grocery store for 14 years, and was personally involved in about a dozen arrests, three of which turned out to be have outstanding felony warrants. None of them made the news because no one involved called the press. Newspapers just don't magically know things. People have to tell them. It's in the best interest of the sailors not to mention it. It's probably really embarrassing for the girl involved. Why would either side volunteer that information to the press of any nation?

I took the point to be that unwarranted violence is cruel and pointless, but that there are times when a limited amount of it can drive home a point far better than a lecture or power point presentation. And yes, I do consider every one of the descriptions to be "limited amounts". No one died, or was permanently injured with the exception of the guy in the Texas town. And in that case it wasn't an inter-service thing, it was a group of people that got together to right what they felt was an injustice. I happen to know of a few construction workers that have gone similar excursions. Heck, there is a thread on here about a group of cheerleaders that did the same thing for something I would consider an insignificant matter.

I was bullied at school. Funny part was, the vast majority of the people that were mean in high school were girls.

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I'm not evil.
An evil person would do the things I think up.

Er, incorrect.

For example, I also have a Ruger Redhawk, 7-1/2" barrel with a Tasco scope. At 100 yards with Federal jacketed hallow points, on a rest, I can center the sight, and keep it centered withing about 1/4" of dead center, but 25 shots later the average miss radius is around 9".

When I switch to Black Talon ammo, the average miss radius drops to just 2.3".

That's with a 7-1/2 barrel at 100 yards.

Why in the world would you think that a barrel around 36 inches shooting a bullet which has long be used by snipers for it's extreme accuracy wouldn't be able to go through the same hole?

When I was a kid we used to shoot clay pigeons and pieces of pigeons as small as 1/4 of the pigeon at 100 yards.

I never missed.

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I am Mugs, of the Alien clan of Usa, Nordamerica, a Terran, of Sol. Human.

Whoever says "perception is reality" is daft. It's merely an abstraction, and often not a very good one.

Wow, such a nice thread.
Its gone, gone, it is a pity really I enjoyed Bigdon and Larry's stories, its all gone.

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This whole internet thing is probably not a passing fad.-Ronald Brak
While speech might be free, consequences cost.-Doodler

Double yikes!!

I see my name prominently displayed in several of the recent quotes - "Geonuc, thank you for the welcome." - although the discussion has nothing to do with my post.

Just to be clear, I 'welcomed' Tailhook as I would anyone in a genuine attempt to promote courteous discourse. But my post was not too favorable to what Tailhook initially offered. I'll repeat it so's you people don't get the idea I liked what the 'hook brought to the table here:

But the original question was about a .22. While that could be any .223/.224 caliber, usually it means a .22 long rifle. Not a sniper's bullet of choice, and certainly not available in any barrel of 36". With the exception of 50 BMG rifles, and some old black powder cartridges, I've never even seen a rifle with a 36 inc barrel.

My original assumption on the "all shots through one hole" claim was that all holes made in the paper were touching, making it "one hole" but not circular.

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I'm not evil.
An evil person would do the things I think up.

I think you did alright

And I admit, at first reading Tailhook's posts made my blood boil a bit.
But this thread hasn't gone to the dogs- not by a long shot.

Tailhook belongs to Tailhook and only Tailhook can account for Tailhook's honor.

BUT - I will take the unpopular route and say let's give Tailhook a chance to recover here.

There could be a reason we are not aware of as to why this person has a bone to pick with certain actions. And you all know where I stand on bullying and violence.
But I do think Tailhook has the opportunity at this point to do some growing too. And to present the case that inspired him (or her) to register and post in the first place- but to do it well enough that we listen to what he or she has to say.

I'll listen.

Hey, I'm trying to not be a hypocrite here... I've gone tearing into some threads like the rabid wolverine myself

Between cruise deployments, carrier and airwing crews undergo weeks of training. These three-day to three-week minicruises are called "work-ups" and TYT's ("type-training") and press both types of personnel to exhaustion through continuous mock-combat scenarios and drills for everything from magazine fires to mass casualties following an enemy strike against the carrier.

During one work-up, the ship's company crew was under the gun of passing the OPE - the Operational Readiness Evaluation and what started one evening as an extensive "final exam" drill for the OPE turned into an unexpected, very real emergency.

After a solid week of drills for General Quarters, man overboard, NBC (nuclear/biological/chemical) attack, plant and power casualty and speed/maneuvering, the ship and airwing personnel were near exhaustion and awaiting the final "biggie" before the evaluation was officially over. We were at flight quarters about sunset and the AT/AQ shop had gotten called to run a weapons-system test on a bird that was reconfigured at the last minute from "bombs" to "anti-radiation missile" for an upcoming flight - and to make matters even more fun, the ship had just gone to General Quarters and was buttoning up. The missile check involved quickly transporting two fairly large pieces of test gear nearly the length of the carrier to the airplane. Enroute, my left heel caught a padeye in the deck the wrong way and I severely sprained my left ankle. The AQ with me sent me to the battle-dressing station at the island for the duration just as the 5MC speaker system announced a portside enemy missile attack with impacts "fore, aft, and amidships."

Great.

That meant that somewhere, one or more smoke canisters were about to go off to simulate a fire and possibly start a mass-casualty drill. The corpsman tossed me an Ace bandage and asked if I could take care of myself while he readied for what we both guessed was about to happen. Sure enough, there was smoke in the port-forward catwalk about halfway to the bow and several guys coming out on deck coughing and yelling about a storage compartment fire.

A real fire.

Cold chills and flashbacks to the training films of the Forrestal fire in my DC/FF school.....

It didn't take long to cut through the initial confusion and take the right steps towards dealing with the emergency. The OPE examiners wanted a mass casualty exercise; they got a real one, instead. The problem started in a storage area adjacent to the port bow catapult track when some mattresses caught fire and filled the nearby berthing compartments with thick, dark smoke. However, the previous week's training and drills payed off handsomely, with the evacuation, treatment, and firefighting executed in a quick and professional manner.

By dawn, sickbay had treated more than thirty guys for smoke inhalation, several for burns suffered while fighting the fire and put one unfortunate AT into a walking cast for the next two weeks due to a fractured ankle.

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"Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who don't understand it." - Florence Ambrose

Good work then!