The Luckiest Unlucky Man I've Ever Seen On The Flightdeck. - Page 8

Larry Jacks · #**211** (**permalink**) 07-May-2008, 01:16 PM

I've never heard the story about a Huey getting a Mig. Sounds dubious but not impossible. The A-1 story is true. I think the A-10 got a helicopter. Speaking of A-10s, they can also be fitted with Sidewinders. With it's rugged construction, heavy armament, and tight turn radius, if the 30mm doesn't get you, the Sidewinder probably will. It'd probably be a good thing to leave them alone.

Mister Earl · #**212** (**permalink**) 07-May-2008, 03:01 PM

Hrm. I'd always thought the helicopter would get the worst out of a fixed wing/rotary engagement. The fixed wing has speed, and the helicopter wouldn't have the speed to evade an air-to-air missile. I'd figure the helicopter would be down before he knew what hit em.

Stuart van Onselen · #**213** (**permalink**) 07-May-2008, 05:27 PM

Well, we're talking about one-off incidents here. Anecdotal evidence, one might say. It may well be that choppers are toast most of the time, and some guys just got lucky, which is why we have these stories. Or it could be that the choppers can put up a good fight against a fixed-wing fighter. We'd need a lot more data points to reach a reasonable conclusion, though. And maybe such encounters are so rare, that there aren't enough data points, at which "point" we have to rely on theory.

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is."

Tailhook '91 · #**214** (**permalink**) 07-May-2008, 06:21 PM

I hear a lot about decorum and how this forum is run, but whatever you accuse me of I have never changed anyone else's posts. Earlier today the word "Funny" in my post 152 linked to an advert, but doesn't any more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Bad Boo

Ok, I hereby state that I am also interested in the answers to BigDon's question.

I refer you to my earlier statement.

Quote:

Also- you may want to write this down- on this forum, when one person asks a question people generally wait for the answer to come, instead of posting the same question over and over again. Because we like to be not annoying.

Review the thread, I asked a question, BigDon posted without answering, I asked again, again he posted without answering. BigDon said he wouldn't answer so I stopped asking.

Quote:

You do realize that, even though there are women at sea, that the men outnumber them so totally and completely that it would be incorrect to say "The Navy is completely gender neutral and is neither macho nor ultra feminine"?

I do realise, but my point remains that the culture is one of bullying the weak, including the physically weak. If men have no recourse to officers who care, why would women?

Quote:

Yes. It makes complete sense that a former sex slave is going to come out to the media with her sob story, and that the people who saved her do not have the sense to keep their mouths shut for her safety.

You are coming at this from the wrong end, when she went missing would the media not be informed? Was there no search for her? Where did her family think she was, or the Belgian Embassy in Mombasa? Or was no-one looking for her? Once she is on the plane why would anyone fear for her safety?

Quote:

Oh, and although I cannot speak for BigDon, I totally approve of violence against humans. The ones that deserve it.

And you will make that decision based on third hand hearsay evidence? Does the right to a trial and being innocent until proved guilty not apply in all cases? Or can you tell who deserves due process?

Quote:

What do you call attacking BigDon's personality? Assuming he is one thing, even though you have no idea who he is?

I read his posts and his attitude to violence and bullying, that is what I have based my posts on. I have read more posts of his than you have of mine. I could ask the same question.

Quote:

I'd call that bullying. Time to start over in your "Days I Have Not Bullied Anyone" log.

You think I am bullying BigDon but what he describes is not bullying? A man on a ship whose officer has washed his hands of his responsibility can be bullied, a man on a forum which has an "ignore" function cannot be bullied.

BigDon, this is your thread and as you do not wish to discuss this we won't.

Neverfly, you cite wiki as a source? You also claim the ration is 3:1 civil to military, did you factor in the different sized workforces in each class?

Moose, pacifist or not you are simply piling on and adding nothing.

Geonuc, at the risk of it happening again, I knew you did not support me or approve, and were simply trying to be helpful.

To the others who posted, rather than make this longer, if the above does not cover your points, please post them again.

Neverfly · #**215** (**permalink**) 07-May-2008, 07:20 PM

Tailhook'91, you are the one who is implying and reading between the lines imaginatively.

If you would like a bit of cheese with your whine, that's fine, but eventually you will need to get back to living in the Real World.

korjik · #**216** (**permalink**) 07-May-2008, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tailhook '91

I hear a lot about decorum and how this forum is run, but whatever you accuse me of I have never changed anyone else's posts. Earlier today the word "Funny" in my post 152 linked to an advert, but doesn't any more.

I refer you to my earlier statement.

Review the thread, I asked a question, BigDon posted without answering, I asked again, again he posted without answering. BigDon said he wouldn't answer so I stopped asking.

I do realise, but my point remains that the culture is one of bullying the weak, including the physically weak. If men have no recourse to officers who care, why would women?

You are coming at this from the wrong end, when she went missing would the media not be informed? Was there no search for her? Where did her family think she was, or the Belgian Embassy in Mombasa? Or was no-one looking for her? Once she is on the plane why would anyone fear for her safety?

And you will make that decision based on third hand hearsay evidence? Does the right to a trial and being innocent until proved guilty not apply in all cases? Or can you tell who deserves due process?

I read his posts and his attitude to violence and bullying, that is what I have based my posts on. I have read more posts of his than you have of mine. I could ask the same question.

You think I am bullying BigDon but what he describes is not bullying? A man on a ship whose officer has washed his hands of his responsibility can be bullied, a man on a forum which has an "ignore" function cannot be bullied.

BigDon, this is your thread and as you do not wish to discuss this we won't.

Neverfly, you cite wiki as a source? You also claim the ration is 3:1 civil to military, did you factor in the different sized workforces in each class?

Moose, pacifist or not you are simply piling on and adding nothing.

Geonuc, at the risk of it happening again, I knew you did not support me or approve, and were simply trying to be helpful.

To the others who posted, rather than make this longer, if the above does not cover your points, please post them again.

any particular reason you are bringing this up again after 2 weeks?

Another point: You seem to be very interested in discussing this, even though it is not the topic of this thread. Threadjacking is against the rules here.

Neverfly · #**217** (**permalink**) 07-May-2008, 10:28 PM

I lurked before registering. I read so many threads it makes my head spin thinking about it.

cjl · #**218** (**permalink**) 07-May-2008, 11:46 PM

Heck - I was a lurker on the BABB for a LONG time before I ever joined - I've probably read it since 2003 or before. I wouldn't necessarily jump to that conclusion of sockpuppetry. In fact, I would say that it would be best to leave these things to the mods, or if you feel something truly against the rules is going on, report it with the little red triangle. Don't sit here and discuss it though.

Moose · #**219** (**permalink**) 08-May-2008, 12:11 AM

My official join date was in 2002, but I'd lurked on an occasional basis since shortly after BABB abandoned the single-threaded system. I can't remember when I really joined, but I'm pretty sure I lurked for about a year before joining, and may as well have been for the following year.

I have to second the suggestion that we avoid open speculation on who might or might not be a sock. The admin have been pretty firm in the past about discouraging that.

HenrikOlsen · #**220** (**permalink**) 08-May-2008, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tailhook '91

I do realise, but my point remains that the culture is one of bullying the weak, including the physically weak. If men have no recourse to officers who care, why would women?

It is a situation where being physically or mentally unable to do your job properly will get someone else killed.
If those who have signed up for the wrong job aren't removed or forced to shape up, people will die.

That's the fundamental driving force behind behavior as BigDon has described, and that is why it's entirely appropriate behavior in that time and place.

Grashtel · #**221** (**permalink**) 08-May-2008, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tailhook '91

I hear a lot about decorum and how this forum is run, but whatever you accuse me of I have never changed anyone else's posts. Earlier today the word "Funny" in my post 152 linked to an advert, but doesn't any more.

Were you logged into BAUT when you saw that the word was linked to an advert? If not then it might well have been done by the automated advertising (which only shows up if you aren't logged into the forum), if you were then you need to scan your machine for adware/spyware, which would be a good idea anyway as I think that it is unlikely that Fraser would use advertising services that tagged words in the actual posts in the forum with ad links.

Neverfly · #**222** (**permalink**) 08-May-2008, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HenrikOlsen

It is a situation where being physically or mentally unable to do your job properly will get someone else killed.
If those who have signed up for the wrong job aren't removed or forced to shape up, people will die.

That's the fundamental driving force behind behavior as BigDon has described, and that is why it's entirely appropriate behavior in that time and place.

This is an excellent response- Describes it perfectly in a few words.

A lot of people tend to forget that a situation that is not their own style or liking doesn't make it wrong for everyone else. Or harmful for that matter.
Where one child being bullied may sink into anti-social depression and anxiety, a different child may Readily overcome it and become quite popular.

In the Military- it becomes essential to weed out those whom may flake out in combat. You NEED to.
It may seem distasteful to some... Especially if they got weeded out!

ctcoker · #**223** (**permalink**) 08-May-2008, 08:16 AM

Tailhook, in your earlier posts you implied that you were in the service at one time or currently (or we board members drew that conclusion). As korjik has asked, which branch were you in? unit? MOS? If you weren't in the military, please say so. While this would explain you aversion to BigDon's (and servicemembers' in general) attitude, but it does not make your attack any more valid, for reasons others have stated. If you were in the military, did you have an especially bad experience or something? Every vet and current soldier I know espouses an attitude in complete opposition to yours.

Larry Jacks · #**224** (**permalink**) 08-May-2008, 12:55 PM

It is a situation where being physically or mentally unable to do your job properly will get someone else killed.
If those who have signed up for the wrong job aren't removed or forced to shape up, people will die.

Very true. From everything I've seen and read, a carrier flight deck is an extremely dangerous place. Anyone who isn't paying attention or doing their share can easily get themselves killed. Even worse, they can get other people killed.

While I can't speak from experience about carrier flight decks, I can from the perspective of being a paratrooper (airborne infantry). The weak and the screw ups must be culled before they get themselves and others killed.

mugaliens · #**225** (**permalink**) 08-May-2008, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart van Onselen

AFAIK, long-range missiles usually "coast" for much of their flight, i.e. rocket burnout occurs long before most of them hit their targets. And of course, it's bleeding velocity every second that it's blundering through the atmosphere without propulsion. And any maneuvering would bleed even more. So it's theoretically possible that the missile was travelling a lot less than its top speed when it struck.

Could be. However, BD made a good point about how it doesn't arm itself until after boost.

BigDon · #**226** (**permalink**) 08-May-2008, 08:40 PM

Tailhook, I REALLY don't mind talking "outside" about this. (In another thread).

But be warned. I'm not threatening you, much like that division officer you keep misrepresenting, *I'm advising you against this course of action*.

Does Tailhook even know how grown men talk to each other in a professional setting? She sounds more and more like a grammer school teacher or a nun. (I'm trying to be discriptive, not insulting) Which is perfectly okay to be, just not in a thread of military stories.

Officer: I advise against that course of action.
Enlisted:*Does it anyway*
Officer: you're on your own.

At what point was Mommy supposed to step in? Is the division officer supposed to hold Shettles hand EVERY time something he pulled down on himself came up? Shettles was an only child, Army brat who did not know how to interact with others. There was no social give and take with him.

All 36 other members of my shop, from wildly different parts of the country, got along. New York City to Mudcreek, Kentucky to Coalinga, California. Except for him. What does THAT tell you? It's not a "clique" if it's everybody else!

What a sec! Jim, is that you?

mugaliens · #**227** (**permalink**) 08-May-2008, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDon

All 36 other members of my shop, from wildly different parts of the country, got along. New York City to Mudcreek, Kentucky to Coalinga, California.

That was my experience. Oh, I felt a bit on the outside during the first couple of years. Later on, I felt I was home with my family. Living, working, eating, exercising, breathing, and fighting together.

Kaptain K · #**228** (**permalink**) 08-May-2008, 09:55 PM

Quote:

It's not a "clique" if it's everybody else!

As I told once my late brother:
"If you're having trouble with everybody, it's probably not everybody's fault!"

PS BigDon we need more of your stories - please!