Personally, I prefer to avoid the stuff altogether. I'm getting more meat from a hunter friend of mine personally, and I'm choosing to eat less meals with meat -- processed or not.

Does not mean I have given it up altogether, however.

Wow, really? That's actually pretty insulting to vegetarians. It's as if anti-vegetarians think that vegetarians don't ever even think for a second about their diet and how to go about it, and can't even stop for a second to say, "Hey. I kinda need protein!"

Do you really want a few examples? Okay.

How about you just read this?

All of these examples are with one link, that was found in about a handful of seconds with a quick google link. I highly suggest that you educate yourself before talking about examples springing to mind, or a lack thereof.

As for Zinc: Here

Cocoa Powder, Bran Wheat, wholemeal, baker's dried yeast, all of these have a significant portion of zinc. For lactovegetarians (of which I haven't actually said is a bad life choice), there is cheese and egg dishes to get back a lot of that zinc. Uh, it seems like dried figs are also good for getting zinc. Not all that sure, chart is hard to read (at least, it's the best choice of the fruit options, most of which are close to nil). However, the best source are nuts. Good old nuts. Brazil nuts (my fave!) are the best. Also, pepper has a significant portion of zinc, as do... uh... sweet pickles I think (??) Then there's peanut butter, fruit and honey bars and sesame bars. Finally, it appears that certain beans are also good for zinc content, as well as Lentils.

As for Iron (same site): Iron!

Ve vill PUMP YU UP!

Cocoa Powder (again), Milo, Ovaltine are all good sources of iron. Bran wheat, Cornflakes, soya, Muesli (whatever the heck that is), puffed rice (but not other kinds of rice --??), breakfast biscuits, and dried baker's yeast are all good sources of iron. There's also egg and cheese dishes, also for lactovegetarians. Seafood is good here, but I'll try to focus more on vegetarian alternatives. Dried apricots are good for iron, as are avocados, dried figs, dried peaches, prunes, dried raisins, dried Sultanas (what the heck are Sultanas?), and of course -- nuts. Stick to pistachios for iron, or roasted cashews. Mm mm! Then, finally, for sauces... well, I wasn't expecting this. This really came as a surprise. Apparently, curry powder is a REAL FRICKIN' GOOD SOURCE of iron, or else that bar just took some steroids... Pepper, osto cubes (?), mustard powder, sesame seeds, and worcerstershire sauce are all, apparently, VERY good sources of iron. Whee! I learned something new, whaddya know? Also: If you like sweets, get some Liquorice if you want some iron. Apparently those have a decent source as well. Carob bars as well! Kidney, mung, and soya beans, naturally, are good sources. Chickpeas, Leeks, parsley, blah blah blah.

That's not all, apparently, but I won't list every single thing with a bit of iron or zinc content. I'm sure you get the picture now... all that stuff you find in meat? Can also be found in vegetables, spices, grains, nuts, and even some kinds of fruits. This really shouldn't come as much of a surprise -- carnivores eat herbivores, who get their nutrients and protein from somewhere.

Well, I don't exactly recall where someone said that, but fine. Alright. In the most extremes, in all situations, no, global vegetarianism isn't quite as easy in the short run as people make it out to be. Long run, though? That's another question, and probably one that is more based on speculation as to what future technology may or may not hold or not.

Do you really do deny -- or at least find it hard to believe -- that the average American consumes far more meat than is required? What, really? Wow.

You don't see cans and cans and cans of processed meat at your local grocery store? I remember seeing all too many.
Regardless, here is a quick cite:

Here is a quick guide to "eating tips":

I'm pretty darn sure that the average American goes over this serving size. Just visit a steakhouse sometime if you're still so skeptical.

EDIT: Heck, I think I should this image alone should prove my point.

How many fast food joints (Burger King, McDonald's, etc.) have meals that are growing more and more to look like this?:



Mmm, yeah! That meal sure looks healthy! I'm sure that's just the amount of meat you need to live and be healthy, right?

Emphasis on the "some", right? Regardless, if you live in an area where you can get access to vegetable proteins, you should do just fine. Plenty of vegetarians get along just fine with a healthy diet in this way, I don't see why it's so impossible. Perhaps you can provide some evidence, for once?

So, what? They eat eggs, butter, yogurt, and drink milk? That's a pretty big step from wanting to eat a steak once a week, and then all sorts of junk meals that also have meat or meat chunks in them, and then to have even more meat for either lunch or dinner, and possibly two slices of bacon with your breakfast every morning, and then a quick hop, skip and a jump over to your local McDonald's (wherein 7% of Americans eat EVERY SINGLE DAY, from what I've read)...

Why is it that people really need to ask stuff like this and don't even bother to take, say, five seconds to actually attempt to look up the information? Or do they just obey people that say stuff they already agree with and ignore that anyone else exists?

The two sources above are quoted from nutritionists who pretty much give a guideline.

Regardless, here is a useful link. Compare:

There's your recommended serving sizes for healthy living. Modify if you are naturally heavier or lighter, I assume.
Then I suggest you avoid nuts, turkeys, chicken, cow, and prunes.

__________________
"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right." -- Thomas Paine

Being intelligent is not a felony. But most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor. -- Heinlein

Creationists make it sound as though a "theory" is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. -- Isaac Asimov

Interesting thread, and interesting how warm it was getting in some places.

For me, the main incentive is likely to be monetary. It amazes me how much money people throw away without thinking about it on things which waste money. Why, for example, do so many houses have no insulation? Why spend money endlessly on electricity to heat or cool a house when you could spend money once to insulate it?

On a personal level, I've done a number of things to reduce electricity consumption, and thus save money. For example, we replaced the old thin curtains in our house with thick ones, to help retain heat. I've also installed some simple pelmets to reduce the air flow against our windows.

We installed a lockable screen door on our front door, meaning that we could keep the front and side doors open during summer to let air flow through and cool the house, rather than using the air conditioning.

We dry the clothes on the clothes line, rather than using a clothes dryer.

As incandescant light globes fail, we're replacing them with compact fluoros.

We'll be replacing our old fridge soon, with one which should use a lot less electricity.

Once we've got the home load paid off, we should be able to afford a solar hot water system, which should work without a booster for about seven months of the year.

Now the combination of all these things won't make much of a difference compared to the rest of humanity, but if enough people do these sorts of things, it could certainly make some sort of impact.

The important point here is that nothing I've listed above has any sort of negative impact on my quality of life, but the result is a slight saving in money, and incidentally a minor benefit to the environment. Why wouldn't others want to do the same?

I also try to catch the bus to and from work as much as possible, though not as much as I should.

In the grander scheme of things, there are other things which could be done. For example, in Australia, our fringe benefits tax rules provide higher tax rebates to people the more they drive their cars. The result is that some people are encouraged to drive their cars pointless kilometres, simply to gain a higher tax rebate. The sooner these sorts of schemes are restructured to encourage people to drive less, the better.

Whut?

__________________
"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right." -- Thomas Paine

Being intelligent is not a felony. But most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor. -- Heinlein

Creationists make it sound as though a "theory" is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. -- Isaac Asimov

Monetary considerations definitely factor into these decisions.

A couple of examples:

Replacing the ~80% efficient furnace in my home with a 97% efficient one would save ~8.5 Gj, and at current prices for natural gas that's about $130/year. I'll wait until the present furnace needs replacing.

My water heater also uses natural gas. If I could install a drain water heat recovery system with 50% efficiency it would save me ~6.5 Gj/year, or about $100/year, but the savings are much more for larger families that use more water. The most efficient of these simple devices cost about $800 here. The difficulty with this retrofit is that I don't have a long enough vertical run in my waste-water system to install the highest efficiency unit.

Again, when the current water heater needs replacing, I will consider the other kinds of units available, and that decision will be based on monetary considerations.

Lotta statements...

Me- Carnivorous predator.

Salad is what food eats.

And that's your option, just like it's also your option to rev up your car and burn an entire gas tank while in park because you think it's funny.

Personally, I'd rather avoid all the various incredible amounts of health problems that would come from an all-meat, nothing-else diet.

__________________
"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right." -- Thomas Paine

Being intelligent is not a felony. But most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor. -- Heinlein

Creationists make it sound as though a "theory" is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. -- Isaac Asimov

I don't do that- And I think that comparison is not equal.

I can't really get away with an all-meat diet. There's too much good food to eat that isn't all meat.

And grains either. It's in everything- rice, cereals, breads...

Lastly, I find most 'studies' on diet to be flawed. They don't account for the whole picture.

Perhaps. From my perspective, it is.

Then, by your own quote above, you're food.

Perhaps you should look into eating yourself? Then you could answer the age-old question of, "If I eat my leg, would I still weigh the same?"

So, please tell me how the "whole picture" states that 7% of Americans (that's about 21,276,312 people, according to the U.S. Population Clock and some simple math) who eat at McDonald's once per day, are being healthy and eating only the amounts of meat that they need? I'd like a cite on that. Because I think that's certainly something to be worried over.

Furthermore, I would think that the American Cancer Society would certainly be professional enough to be able to correctly enact studies on whether or not too much red meat would, you know, cause cancer. Considering that's their expertise. Can you please demonstrate where, in their studies, they went wrong? The exact problems with their studies and alternative explanations for the rise in cancer rates for those that eat far too much red meat. If you wish to demonstrate where the studies went wrong, here is a link close to the source.

You can eat meat (red or not) all you want; the entire world is backing you up by allowing you to eat almost any kind of meat, anytime you want, anywhere you want. But do not dismiss science, or offer pseudoscience in place of justifying your lifestyle. Unless you can actually demonstrate where, exactly, the studies went wrong. Saying "Well, their studies are flawed, so I won't listen to them" without demonstrating where the flaws are in particular studies cited, is a similar tactic to what certain people are doing in the "Intellectual Design" thread...




EDIT: Here's a bit from Scientific American, with an interview with University of North Carolina Chapel Hill nutrition epidemiologist Barry Popkin. This supports my "U.S. eats far too much meat" (and what meat they eat are the "wrong" kinds of meat that aren't, in fact, very healthy for you in excess)... in fact, it's a worldwide problem, not necessarily only limited to the United States. I'll highlight some key points:

So, pretty much, I think I have suitably shown a few things within the past few posts:

1) It is possible to ingest proteins, iron, and zinc with non-meat resources. Many of which can be found at the local grocery store.
2) An incredible amount of the CO2 gas that threatens the world with global warming, can be found in the meat processing industry.
3) Americans, and in fact a good chunk of the entire world, continues to eat foods (including meats) well into excess (although there are other factors, including lack of exercise and, you know, ingesting of too many sugars -- not just meat).
4) Excess of red meat can increase risk of cancer.

Conclusion: There are methods that the average person can cut back on their meat consumption -- and, in fact, much more that they can do to cut back on other consumption that makes them overweight and unhealthy.

When someone can correct any of the numbers above with their own sources, or can suitably demonstrate how the underlying studies are unreliable, I may be interested.

__________________
"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right." -- Thomas Paine

Being intelligent is not a felony. But most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor. -- Heinlein

Creationists make it sound as though a "theory" is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. -- Isaac Asimov

OK, in total, how many ounces of food (of each of the 4 groups) do I need to eat, and how much (or little) would it cost on average? I'll see what I can do to ration things out. Should I invest in a scale?

I'm also worried that if I ration things out like nutritional authorities say I should (6-10 pieces of bread, 8-12 oz. meat, etc.) I'm going to feel hungry in between meals. How do I satisfy those pangs without eating anything?

- Maha Vailo

__________________
When you get down to it, Science answers how. Religion answers why. - hippietrekx

Naturally, it should vary depending on your body type and weight. But substituting grains with meats (red especially), or increasing meat intake to feel more "full" is not a good answer.

And no, I don't think you should need to invest in a scale. Going with 10 ounces instead of 8 ounces shouldn't be catastrophic. Upping it to 12 ounces to 16 ounces, or going with a big mac every two days certainly isn't going to help you, though. You should be able to know approximately what food you're eating when.

If you really want advice, I think it would be a good idea to keep a journal of what you eat, and what's in what you eat. Keep note of nutritional information -- calories, saturated fats, etc. You can approximate or round up/down as you wish, you don't have to go for pure scientific accuracy naturally. But keep in mind that junk food you eat between meals and the odd coca cola also counts towards this.

Here's a helpful resource for having a general idea of how to balance out your meals.

I'm not sure on what the costs would entail. A good way to cut down on costs is to prepare your own meals. Perhaps someone else can enlighten us more on this point.

Regardless, aren't you at the least bit willing to do your own research? I'm willing to answer questions, but I'm using the exact same tools that are at your disposal as well. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to do basic research into nutritional information and diet suggestions, and it is not incredibly difficult to do a cost-comparison at your local grocery store.

If your body type does not allow these portions to be enough, then perhaps you should increase your overall portions, while keeping them proportionally approximate.

Of course, I'm not an actual expert, that just seems the most "common sense" answer that I can think of.

Also, drinking more water should actually help with this. If you drink more, you might find yourself feeling less hungry between meals.

__________________
"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right." -- Thomas Paine

Being intelligent is not a felony. But most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor. -- Heinlein

Creationists make it sound as though a "theory" is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. -- Isaac Asimov

How am I supposed to know what my body type is, other than by guessing? From what I can tell, I'm about 5' 5", skinny arms (filling out thanks to all that heavy lifting at work), muscular legs (thanks to all that walking and biking), and a belly that needs a little work. I'm guessing I weigh about 160 lbs (don't know kilos, unfortunately).

That said, how much (in what proportions) do people suggest I eat of the 4 food groups daily?

I don't really want to invest in a journal. I do too much record keeping at work and in one of my hobbies, thankyouverymuch.

And yes, I've tried drinking water in between meals, and it just doesn't keep me full enough for long enough. Also, it hurts my stomach if I take it on a stomach that's too empty.

- Maha Vailo

__________________
When you get down to it, Science answers how. Religion answers why. - hippietrekx

*Sigh*

Body Type Quiz.

2 seconds with google.

Also, I recommend you peruse this as well: Nutrition Advice - facts on body building, nutrition, and weight loss.

AUUUUGH! I listed a link already! In case you're just colorblind and can't see blue color, here it is: http://www.thefeltsource.com/New-Food-Pyramid-Large.jpg

Another source is here: http://www.nutriadvice.com/nutrition.html

This talks more in "servings" than ounces, though. I should also add that the Nutrition advice here goes along nicely with my claim that vegetarians can get proteins and minerals from other sources than meat. To quote: Note that Vitamin B can be found in other sources besides meat, as well. This page can explain some good sources: http://www.vegsoc.org/info/vitmineral.html#B1



Anyways, I think I'll give up on answering your questions. You really do not seem all that interested in learning, considering the lack of effort you put into doing your own research.

Regardless, do you admit that there is a problem or not? Is there a major problem with obesity, or not? Is there a problem with 7% of Americans eating at McDonald's once per day, or not?

In short, are you even going to touch on the basic premise in this thread or not? The thread is "How to reduce our environmental footprint", not "How Maha Vailo should diet".

Or are you going to say that there is nothing that can be done to change any of our lifestyles?

__________________
"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right." -- Thomas Paine

Being intelligent is not a felony. But most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor. -- Heinlein

Creationists make it sound as though a "theory" is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. -- Isaac Asimov

Oh, ok
Well, From mine it isn't.


This is true. However, I will defend myself.
Unless you are a hot chick with a puppy.

I'm reminded of Voltaire...

McDonalds serves meat?
That's news...

But this is also an unequal expression on your part. Handing someone something that is cooked in unhealthy ways and claiming that ANY meat must also be unhealthy is unreasonable.
Also, I could get away with eating McDonalds every day. Others couldn't though.
I just have that kind of metabolism. Some envy it. I don't usually, I would like to gain a few pounds.

Like bacon?

Actually... I thought everything causes cancer?
Like your examples of determinism- Too many factors to take into account.
Like why don't I gain weight but other people do If eating lots of greasy foods?