I have a large collection of 78 RPM records that I need to transcribe to digital format while they're still playable.

I'm in the process of acquiring cartridges with styli that will track above or below the worn areas, thus using areas previously untouched, so to speak. The smaller styli have the correct diameter to avoid the debris field at the bottom of the groove.

However I don't have a 78 RPM turntable. What I plan to do is play the records at 45 RPM while capturing them digitally and then using my DSP software to convert the speed from 45 RPM to 78.26, using a multiplication factor of 1.739.

The only thing I can see happening with this method is losing some of the bass. But there's not much bass (i.e., sub 120 Hz) in 78s anyway, so I don't see a problem there. Plus the tracking of the grooves should be improved not only due to the new area being used but also the slower playing speed.

I've experimented with few 78s using an old ceramic cartridge and the results were promising.

Any comments, cautions, or criticisms?

Nicolas?

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I don't know much about this type of thing. but I do have a question about the quality of the transfer. Is your sample rate going to be high enough to avoid any compression artifacts when you increase the speed by an odd amount like that? That's the main thing I could see, again not really knowing much about it.

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Download Audacity - it's free download & comes with profiles for various record types, including 78's from memory. You might need a LAME encoder if you're planning on MP3 but personally I'd use FLAC files - no compression loss.

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Thanks for the reply.

I'm using a really high sampling rate (96KHz). The reason for the "odd amount" is that's typical of what's needed to maintain the pitch. Having "perfect" pitch, even slight variations flat or sharp are easily detected and annoying. Some 78s were recording at different speeds and I adjust for correct pitch as needed.

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Thanks for replying. A check of my archives shows I downloaded Audacity in April, 2006 but didn't install it. Might give it a try.

Currently I'm using the latest version (v. 5.25 2007) of GoldWave shareware, which I bought back in 1999. It's been a fine performer for every task I've done with it.

Been MP3ing with Lame (and equivalents) since 1999, too. Just for web transfers though. For keepers the uncompressed files are the way to go.

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Thank you, Tog_ and Acolyte for your input.

I wound up getting a Shure M78S cartridge with a 2.5 mil diamond stylus. It tracks 78s quite well at 45 RPM and 2.5 grams.

It was advertised as a monaural cartridge, but a little research revealed it's mono due to jumpers on the signal pins. Removing these jumpers makes it a stereo cartridge. After finding this out, I ordered a Shure N70B 0.6 diamond stylus, which is for LPs. So now with a quick change-out I can play 33 1/3, 45, and 78 RPM records.

The Goldwave software does a fabulous job of changing the signal from 45 to 78 RPM. The sound is very smooth, accurate, and artifact-free, except for those artifacts from 78s that even the best noise-reduction applications can't remove.

A bit of web research showed that, as suspected, there's a slight bass roll-off doing this, but the higher frequencies are actually improved since the stylus tracks better at the lower speed. Plus the slight bass roll-off is easily compensated for using Goldwave's equalizer.

By shopping around, I was able to get the whole combo for under $45.

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Nice. Glad to hear it worked out for you.

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Wow! From who?
Would these work with LPs as well?

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Yes. In fact the sound is much "sweeter" than what I was getting from my previous LP "reference" cartridge, an audio-technica ATN-211EP. So I'm now using the M78S with the N70B stylus to digitally preserve my LPs.

The M78S was from Amazon and went for $33.58 (free shipping and no sales tax). The N70B stylus was from Parts Express and was $8.40. The shipping was $1.86 (no sales tax) which resulted in a total of $43.84.

Everything was well-packaged and arrived in excellent condition. No complaints about performance whatsoever.


BTW, if the review by an Amazon customer was correct, then Shure has now corrected the wiring diagram.

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Sooo, for the clueless (me) - how exactly are you doing this? I have many LPs, a very good Technics turntable, a very good Kenwood receiver and a computer (obviously). Not sure about the state of the cartridge, but you've already provided info on what to get there. And I guess I'd need some software, such as Goldwave. What else would I need to digitize my records?

It appears that once you get a new cartridge/stylus, you will have everything except the software and maybe the proper cable.

If you don't have a good LP cleaner, be sure to get one. Stanton makes a fine one. Discwasher used to make a good one (the D4), but since Radio Shack took them over, the latest version is cheap junk. BTW, if you get the Stanton. let me know. The instructions are very unclear (as if they were written by a CTer) as to how to orient the brush, etc. After many emails to their techs back and forth, I finally got correct info on what to do.

The cable can be an RCA pair to 1/8" plug, or if your receiver has a headphone jack, a 1/4" plug to a 1/8" plug. The latter plugs into your sound card's "line in" jack.

GoldWave is $45 and well worth it. But if you're on a tight budget you might try Audacity which is freeware. I tried an early version of Audacity a while back and preferred GoldWave. YMMV.

Then learn the software and experiment until you're satisfied with the results. I've found a 44.1 KHz sampling rate works just fine for LPs and gives CD-level results (although the dynamics will be compressed due to the inherent limitations of LPs in that department). If you are blessed with audiophile "golden ears" (those are similar to Uri Geller's "special abilities"), GoldWave will allow you to sample at rates up to 192 KHz.

Best of luck. And remember, every day, vinyl relieves stresses that result in more noise interfering with the signal.

Here's screen shot of GoldWave's starting interface:

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So my 1970's LP's are feeling pretty carefree by now, eh?

The ones I think I'd like digitized most are the Pousette-Dart Band LP's. I miss listening to those tunes.

Thanks, Mak.

I have a fairly large collection of old tube equipment - including some really old Garrard turntables that run 33 up to 78. Plus a wide variety of unopened styli. I'm still in the process of setting up the rig I'll be using but the rest of the stuff is up for grabs.

Anyway I don't think many people understand how different the sound of an LP through a tube amp is versus a compressed-source transistor-amped experience. It is like night and day - the transistor amps sound like they are under water compared with a tube amp. And vinyl just sounds so much more natural than anything else I've heard. (Well- other than a set of Meridian speakers... but that is a different class of audio)

Anyway good luck.

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I've got both tube and transistor amps and heard plenty more than I own. Believe me, in the "high-end" area you can get (modern or vintage) tube amps and transistor amps to sound pretty much identical. So as long as the source is OK, you don't NEED tubes to get a good sound, it can be achieved just as well with transistors. It that sense, there is no such thing as "tube sound". Besides, when not talking about distortion such as in guitar amps, the "tube sound" actually mainly is the sound of the output transformers used in tube amps. OTOH, if the source is bad, it will sound bad no matter what amplifier is used on it .

About vinyl vs the rest: in my opinion a proper vinyl setup sound different from other (also proper quality) systems, but not better or worse. Just, different. And not even that different in some cases.

@mak: I think you're doing just great, especially with finding styli that touch areas not yet worn out. If you've got a good 45 table, it may be a better option than a lesser quality 78 table.

If you want good quality 78 at a more or less reasonable price: there is a mod for the Technics SL-1200 mkII to make it run at 78.

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If your vinyl disks sound compressed, might I suggest you look into one of the gates (downward expanders) made dbx, 166, 266 and 1066 in ascending order of price. Of course, like all good equipment, they can be over used to the point of sounding artificial, but used properly they are very transparent

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In double blind listening tests, any reasonably good quality amplifier is indistinguishable from any other, provided they are not clipping and have sufficient power for the speakers (the ones I saw tested were from a $200 Pioneer to a $12k tube from some specialty manufacturer, all 2 channel power amps driven by a separate preamp). So any claims of a tube amp sounding different from a transistor amp given the same source material are simply not the case. Now, a record will sound different from a CD, though I actually prefer the CD sound (the record has more distortion in it), though it is somewhat ruined with the modern dynamic compression that is so common on CD's.

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I have often heard affectionados say, tube amps have a "softer sound" whatever that means. It doesn't surprise me that most people can not tell the difference. The human eye can discern millions of colors but I don't think the ear has the same kind of acuity (in the majority of people). For the most part, I personally can not tell the difference between most high-end amplifiers. For me, a lot of the performance flaws are in the speakers, not the amplifiers.

The "softer sound"of tube amps is due to several things:
1) Limited transient velocity. A transistor amp can go from -max to +max much faster than a tube amp (with less overshoot as well).
2) Lower bandwidth. Most tube amps are limited to 20-20kHz or 20-40kHz. Many transistor amp have bandwidth of 0-200kHz or more This is a direct result of #1 above.
3) when a tube distorts, the harmonics are all "even order" which sounds more "musical than the "odd order" harmonics of transistors

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The thing about those is that the distortion in a modern amp of either kind is too small to be perceptible (again, unless you're trying to use an underpowered amp), and as far as #2 is concerned, yes it may be true, but it's irrelevant. Most speakers barely make it past 20k anyways, and most ears don't even get that far, so whether or not an amp can reproduce 200kHz accurately, or even 50k is completely irrelevant.

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Quite right, distortion is a non-issue for any kind of amp as long as it matches the speakers (power, stability); and speaker distortion (waveform distortion, dB-frequency dependency etc) is far larger.

The most important thing is to have equipment that matches well. The reason is that many manufacturers deliberately make their equipment not really neutral, but colour the sound slightly to their likings. Some sources, amps, speakers will for example have more prominent highs than others. If you don't like prominent highs, you should avoid at least one of these in your source-amp-speaker chain.

I traded my Technics SE-9200 for a marantz 170DC (for the lows) plus a custom tube/transistor hybrid power amp (for the highs) for that reason. Nothing wrong with the Technics, but it sounded too sharp on my speakers. With the current setup, that problem is solved.

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A person can buy the most expensive/highly-rated equipment in the world. However, putting it (especially the speakers) in the wrong place in the wrong room will make it sound like...well, not very good.

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oh so true. Room and setup acoustics, extremely important. Don't believe me? Put your setup in your bathroom.

How's the digitalisimonisizingmathinga of the 78's going?

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I know this subject is not 100% on topic but I've read plenty of material that suggests tube amp sound is considerably different that transistor and that most people that know what to listen for *can* tell the difference. Now I realize this doesn't cover general public or the "chain" of audio quality (speakers, the VERY important room setup, etc) but it relates somewhat here in that the general public also can't tell the difference between an MP3 and a raw recording - but I think there are plenty of people around that *can* and prefer raw recordings.

I know that's not apples to apples but I think the comparison applies.

I certainly won't claim that most people would know the difference. But the few that do tend to prefer either tube amps or really absurdly high-end transistor amps ala Meridian and the like.

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Fer sure. I can't count how many folks I've known who blew megabucks on the most expensive system they could buy, and didn't have a clue as to how to set it up in their listening room.

It's going great.

Here's one of the first 78s I transcribed:



Great results. Pops and clicks mostly gone, groove noise minimalised, and the voices come through very clearly.

Now onto the Koussevitzky/Boston Symphony Orchestra performance of Beethoven's Symphony No. 3. This is where GoldWave excels, especially with the task of merging one sound file into another seamlessly.

BTW, IMHO, it has some of the greatest cover art ever from the 78 RPM era. I'll post it later.

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I know someone with especially fine hearing. He's got a private audio company, designs amps (also repairs and modifies stuff. He built his own active speaker system using 6 Magnepans. six.). Tube, transistor, hybrid, Ucd, class D if you like, he designs and builds it all.

He can build a tube amp that sounds "tubeish". Very tubeish if you wish. He can also build one that sounds just like a transistor amp. It's all how you design it. If you like "tube sound", a tube amp can give you that sound. If you don't like "tube sound" you can still choose between a tube amp and transistor amp, or even a hybrid, as a tube amp doesn't need to have that tube sound. He's very good at hearing what he calls "sharp edges" in sound, and he tries to design them out. When that happens, tube and transistor start to sound very alike, as they're both amplifying very neutral at this point. And these amps don't even need to be extremely expensive. With todays components and design techniques, a very neutral amplifier using tubes or transistors can be built for a few hundred euro/dollar. A high power tube amp will cost a lot of money as you'll need quite some power tubes to get some watts out of it. With the going price of say a KT88 tube, that adds up. High power transistor amps also cost quite some money, but for the 100W+ range, they tend to be quite a bit cheaper (erm, less expensive ) than tube amps.

btw that guy does hear the difference between mp3 and uncompressed sources .

I'm thinking of just using his hybrid design amp full-range, and letting the Marantz 170DC out of the chain. The hybrid simply is better, also in the lows .

Keep up the good work Maksutov!

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Well, many of the people who claimed to be able to tell the difference were unable to in a double blind test (I'll see if I can find a link - I know I have it around here somewhere). IMHO, an extremely high end amp is in many ways a waste of money, as you will get a very noticeable improvement by going with better speakers, or even just making sure the room setup is right (I actually use a Denon 2808, and I've done some single blind tests myself between it and a Musical Fidelity that my dad owns, and there was no perceptible difference).

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Hopefully, the excepts were from D'oyly Carte.

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I'm planning on spending big money on speakers once in the coming years, and that should be it until something breaks down. There is still some room for improvement in the rest of the chain, but it would cost so much for so little increase, it's simply not worth it for me.

I do hope the new (wel, very old actually ) speakers will be a good match with my power amps, or at least with the hybrid when used full range.

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Well, the record labels say "Gilbert & Sullivan Light Opera Company", but who knows?

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I know it wasn't the "D'Ascoyne Duke Light Opera Company", since none of it involved the commission of family murders until the rightful heir was the last one standing.

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