I would like to start out about this topic because of the high cost of fuel and my insane interest in classic american cars plus my interest in history has kept my researching the 'controversy of 100+ miles get gallon of gas. Now I will start off with what my high school science teacher told me about the chemical energy of gasoline. He told me that you can go 70 miles on a PINT of gasoline in theory. That is how much energy is in a gallon of gasoline. You run into a few problems that keeps most people from believing the 100+ mile per gallon urban legend. 1st is that most of the energy turns into heat. Take your own observations about gasoline. Like most compounds it is less reactive in liquid state. It needs to heat up to vaporize then explode. Gasoline when you dump it on a fire it takes a while to burn, thus creates alot of heat and most is wasted as heat. Now another side to the nickle. Why is there a universal thought that gasoline is more dangerous in a VAPOR state? Well it is. the first internal combustion engine ever made in Germany in the 1880's used kerosine vapors, not liquid. Internal combustion engines were designed to originally burn gas not liquid. How does refineries process gasoline into several octanes? by CRACKING the molecules into smaller elements then mixing them with other grade of octanes. Hence the octane level. If you can make your car like a refinery 'cracking' gasoline into smaller molecules you would get a quicker reaction hence less burning more explosion. If gasoline is completely burned it is to create just TWO gases. Carbon dioxide (alot less then even the most modern car expells) and water. They talk about carbon monoxide. Why? carbon monoxide has chemical energy in its structure, meaning carbon monoxide is a by product of UNBURNT fuel. When gasoline is heated it expands and becomes more reactive. Gasoline burns faster and more efficiently in a vapor state but after a Canadian called Charles Nelson Pouge invented 3 carburetors that got over 100 mpg and the news caused the Canadian oil stock prices to drop and got bought out some think, they started to add lead and other chemicals to gasoline which when you heat the gas the additives coat the heating elements. The idea of over 900 US Patents is to use the heat from the motor car to heat the gas to about 450 degrees to crack it and filter out the additives with nickle, palladium (sp), rhodidium (sp), and titanium, then you can run a motor 20/1-30/1 and leaner. The bad side to this is that as Charles Pouge told a reporter right before his first patent was to expire he said you would have to sacrifice acceleration. Like with his last patent that uses exhaust heat to crack the gas before being mixed with the air that claimed 200 MPG. He said if you dont mind taking 10 minutes to accelerate 0-30 mph then it would work but is not as dangerous as a standard carburetor because it vaporized fuel on demand. Tom Ogle in 1976 had a 70 ford with a 351 V8 that got over 100 miles per gallon by doing the same thing. and This you can find out by going to the El Paso Texas library and reading the articals fron 1976 to 1978 where Tom once stated a representative from Shell Oil asked what he would do with 25 MILLION dollars. he refused and not long after died of a drug overdose and had his vapor system patented also. See the idea is to heat gas to crack it and then you get a larger explosion and not letting liquid in the cylinders because that has to heat up before exploding. Those of you who had to wait to warm up an auto should be able to understand that gas is more reactive the hotter it is. Gasoline will not explode unless in contact with oxygen. If its heated to the point of auto ignition just under 500 degrees it will revert back to a liquid. To put some meat on this beast check out the US Patent website and check out this website.

http://fuelvapors.com/

just on a side note. One of my cars is a 1959 Buick LeSabre 2 door sedan body style 4411. The guy I bought it from knew about Charles Pouges carburetors. His dad was a Buick dealer in St Paul Nebraska in the 40's and 50's. In his words he said his dad had one of the Pouge Carburetors on his 48 Buick Roadmaster and could drive for months on a tank of gas, and he drove alot. One day his car wouldnt start and he found out his Pouge Carburetor was gone. He bought one directly from Pouge I imagine. Pouge told his neigbors, friends, and family about his discovery and not long later ended up the manager of a oil filter company and wouldnt talk about his invention and never made another one. His shop was broke into 3 times that I could find out. Just some fruit for thought.

__________________
Now I realize that reverance for the past, is what ensures our future.

Snake oil, I would suggest.

An appreciation of the efficiency of modern internal combustion engines would suggest that such large gains in efficiency cannot be gained merely by better carburation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...ine_Efficiency

The sellers of the information appear to have unusual motives of a kind which do not inspire confidence.
http://fuelvapors.com/best/main_pages/why.htm

Moreover appealing to cover-up and conspiracy theory does not inspire confidence - why should it affect carmakers in other countries? The patent registers contain many (perhaps mainly) impractical and unworkable patents.

With regard to the thread title ...

'proof' of what?

I don't think you really want an explosion, unless the sound of your engine knocking makes you feel good. Fast burn, yes, boom, no.

__________________
If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers.

Wow.

First, how does one achive 0 posts?

Second, how does one manage to combine 869 words in a single paragraph? That feat is so absolutely amazing (and unintelligible) that I am not worthy of reading it!

The post counter never made it to the end of the post to count it as a whole one.

__________________
Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

What this guy doesn't know about internal combustion would fill a book.

What he's got wrong would fill two!

__________________
Any day you wake up on "the right side of the dirt" is a good day.

T. Anderson

Perhaps it runs on nitrogen.

__________________
If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers.

Any bets on whether this is copied and pasted from another website/forum?

Pete

__________________
PJE

There's so much I don't know about astrophysics. I wish I had read that book by that wheelchair guy.

Google doesn't seem to think so, not yet at least.

__________________
And you, to whom adversity has dealt the final blow
With smiling [faces] lyin' to ye' everywhere ye' go
Turn to, and put out all your strength of arm and heart and brain
And like the Mary Ellen Carter, rise again.

A lot of his information may have been gleaned from this http://www.rexresearch.com/pogue/1pogue.htm site. Or maybe not, since he doesn't seem to have done enough research to discover how to spell "Pogue". In the 1950s, when I was a teenager, my gearhead friends and I discovered this "miracle carburetor" and were set straight by our fathers, most of whom were machinists (except for the one we only saw on weekends because he was busy building the first commercial nuclear power plant).
When GB, Jr. was in his twenties, we were talking about screwy automotive ideas; I mentioned the Pogue carburetor and he said "OK, I'll bite, what's a carburetor?"

__________________
"Everybody's playing the Game
But nobody's rules are the same
Nobody's on nobody's side." (Tim Rice)
No matter how strong, or brave, or pure of heart you may be; sometimes the dragon wins!

Back to the drawing board...

__________________
*

You should invent a system that will allow cars to run on massive blocks of text, you would be a millionaire.

__________________
"Most editorials are written by people that love to argue but got kicked off debate team for not making any sense." -Seanbaby

Here is a thought. Disconnect from the engine all the toys, that is air con, power steering etc. Alternator that will provide the bare minimum and we are assuming efficient radiator and electric fan. Chuck all unnecessary stuff like the trim and the seats and the mother in law. Limit driving to absolutely essential trips only and in low traffic conditions to maximise MPG....


Meanwhile back in the real world. I would have thought that a manufacturer would make a killing in todays climate with such a device? In the UK you would with todays prices at the very least some enterprising would would provide the bumpf FOC just to upset the government tax gatherers.

if i can get 30mpg in a 4100 pound 1976 Monte Carlo with the cheapest engine rebuild kit i could find and the cheapest carburetor rebuild i could do- at the ripe old age of 19, no less- than it can't be too hard to get good mileage.

__________________
"blacker than the blackest black... times infinity."- Nathan Explosion
The.. Best.. Thread..Ever...

From how I understand it, you could technically get better mileage today already.
The factors that delay it are many, though.

Robustness - fuel quality (octane number, for example) is very different throughout the world, and cars have to run acceptably everywhere. Also, engine parts cannot age too rapidly, and electronic sensors are very fickle in a hot and sooty environment.
Safety - similar to that. Car manufacturers are very reluctant to employ not-completely-tested technology. Lawsuits and bad reputation are a big turnoff. Only BMW and Toyota come to mind in actively introducing new engine-related tech in the last few years. Many new developments come from the racing world, where you don't have to be careful on the same level and can beta-test at the same time.
Cost - parts have to be as cheap as possible to give the car manufacturers a margin that's enough to survive. Lower cost also means lower part quality, which means less sensitivity and higher spread.
And of course, people who can't afford high fuel prices also can't afford a painfully more expensive car.

If you had really figured out a safe, cheap way to increase fuel efficiency, I'm sure you could make a lot more money from just the patent fees the car industry would be forced to pay you than by selling it on the consumer market...

__________________
Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.

"Half of what I say is meaningless, but I say it so that the other half may reach you."

Interesting action to take after dieing

__________________
‘To those who regard “crime fiction” as some sacred icon which must follow a rigid formula, I will always be the man who writes 18-syllable haiku.’Trying to make sense of computers, The Error Log.

Perhaps someone should tell him about detonation, and the astonishing effect
this has on crankshafts, wrist pins, connecting rods and the beeeg holes in pistons !!!!!!

If you wanted to get more out of gasoline engines, take the waste heat and
dump it into a sterling cycle motor to generate more electricity , along with the electricity made by the gas motor, all of which charge the battery of a hybrid vehicle. Now, you "will" get what you paid for. It might work particularly well in cold climates.....big differential temperatures, efficient condenser.
Now you're talking.

Best regards, Dan

Without any regard for the weight being moved or gearing differences or anything else?

I mean, one of those little .029 model airplane engines probably could power an ittly-bitty car and get mega mileage; but put it in an Electra 225 Ltd it might be another story.

__________________
Don of Borg - Cool, Calm, Collective.

"Within the next generation I believe that the world's leaders will discover that infant conditioning and narco-hypnosis are more efficient, as instruments of government, than clubs and prisons, and that the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

There's a mileage competition that came up on my radar a couple of times over the past few years, where they were given a cup of gas and had to go as far as possible. The winner did, IIRC, over 100 miles on that cup, but the vehicle wasn't much heavier than a bicycle. That's about all I remember, though. If I can find a reference to it, I'll post it.

__________________
And you, to whom adversity has dealt the final blow
With smiling [faces] lyin' to ye' everywhere ye' go
Turn to, and put out all your strength of arm and heart and brain
And like the Mary Ellen Carter, rise again.

Well, here's one car that gets a mileage of ten miles per teaspoon...

__________________
WANTED:

Schroedinger's Cat

Dead And Alive

How did that number suddenly jump ~250% ?

We chalked up the 3000mpg as being rounding on this discussion here about the exact same thing, and now they are claiming 7000?

__________________
Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

Maybe because your link appeared to be a high school competition?

(I really don't know why the difference - I'll see if I can find something more)

EDIT: yeah, it looks like 7000 is correct. Not quite sure about the 3000 number though.

__________________
WANTED:

Schroedinger's Cat

Dead And Alive

Hard to tell. They both reference "THE" Eco-Marathon, and both reference it as a "yearly" event, but they claim different winners and say the competitions are held around the world.
But; 2843mpg was mentioned as a record without specifying a category.

Can we say "bad reporting"...?

__________________
Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

The 7000 mpg is definitely due to rounding, it should have read 7,148 mpg

__________________
‘To those who regard “crime fiction” as some sacred icon which must follow a rigid formula, I will always be the man who writes 18-syllable haiku.’Trying to make sense of computers, The Error Log.

Holy Fossil-Fuel-Dependency Batman!

__________________
Don of Borg - Cool, Calm, Collective.

"Within the next generation I believe that the world's leaders will discover that infant conditioning and narco-hypnosis are more efficient, as instruments of government, than clubs and prisons, and that the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Hmm...

Here's an official results page showing 10,517 mpg:
http://www.shell.co.uk/home/content/...7_results.html

Even assuming that's imperial gallons (as it is a UK competition), that's 8757 per US gallon (and 11.4 miles per teaspoon).

__________________
WANTED:

Schroedinger's Cat

Dead And Alive

Finally, some details. July 2007? I think we just added another race in this yearly event.
This must be an entire series of races throughout the year. They really don't make too much too clear.
Considering that its MPG for a solar vehicle, I really don't think it matters that much. That's probably the distance it went while the cup of gasoline evaporated under the windshield.

__________________
Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

Nope.

__________________
WANTED:

Schroedinger's Cat

Dead And Alive

Ow, I skipped right passed that one. I saw it as overall, but assumed it would have been another technology like ESSTIN.

__________________
Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)