Intelligent Evolution: The Evolutionary Design

sabianq · #1 (**permalink**) 02-July-2008, 04:14 PM

Hey all.
I had a fun discussion with my neighbor the other day.
Basically the topic came up about learning, intelligence and memory.

The crux of the discussion was that one cannot learn without memory. And intelligence is a function of learning and memory.

What would the definition of intelligence be?

WIKI say this about intelligence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence

Quote:

Intelligence (also called intellect) is an umbrella term used to describe a property of the mind that encompasses many related abilities, such as the capacities to reason, to plan, to solve problems, to think abstractly, to comprehend ideas, to use language, and to learn. There are several ways to define intelligence. In some cases, intelligence may include traits such as creativity, personality, character, knowledge, or wisdom. However, some psychologists prefer not to include these traits in the definition of intelligence.

When one studies biology, all sorts of evolutionary traits that ensure survival become apparent. everything from moths that are the same color of the bark of the tree that they rest on so they wont be seen to insects and other animals that "adopt" the colors of more poisonous critters to avoid being eaten.

one fundamental aspect of this is that fact that biology "learns" how to survive. Biology has in many cases come up very novel and very unexpected highly technical mechanisms that insure survival. This almost could be argued that nature has the ability to reason.
However it can most certainly be argued that there is a "memory" mechanism built into biology otherwise evolution would be seemingly impossible.

if you can argue both of those points, then it really is not a far stretch to suggest that evolution is in itself intelligent (albiet very slow)

just a wild accusation and something to ponder.

LotusExcelle · #2 (**permalink**) 02-July-2008, 04:21 PM

I see where you are going/went with this but evolution/nature also makes some gloriously bad mistakes. What lives is not because of a *decision* nature has made but by a one in a million chance.

Ronald Brak · #3 (**permalink**) 02-July-2008, 04:55 PM

That's like saying hemlines are intelligent.

sabianq · #4 (**permalink**) 02-July-2008, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LotusExcelle

I see where you are going/went with this but evolution/nature also makes some gloriously bad mistakes. What lives is not because of a *decision* nature has made but by a one in a million chance.

I actually absolutely agree with you, however, there are instance where the evolution of a species happens very fast to cope with environmental conditions.

I would never imply that there would be an all present mind behind any of this, how ever as you pointed out, this happens as a result of trial and error. Isn't the very reason that humans can get anything (well most things anyway) done is by trial and error?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronald

That's like saying hemlines are intelligent.

No it is not, I have never seen a hemline turn into a tattoo to keep from being repositioned.

sabianq · #5 (**permalink**) 02-July-2008, 05:11 PM

if there is a memory mechanism, I would have to surmise that it would be a form of DNA memory like a trait.

actually the concept of "traits" precludes that it is all random.

And I did suggest that this process would take a long time.

Paul Leeks · #6 (**permalink**) 03-July-2008, 12:39 AM

Intelligence...someone once told me...."is your ability to see the difference"

I think intelligence is on another a number of different levels

also...everyone has their own level of understanding!!

I think things have evolved but also there is a "HIGHER" intelligence thats gone into it!!

Paul

sabianq · #7 (**permalink**) 03-July-2008, 01:13 PM

Hi Paul,

I could never really subscribe to a "higher" Intelligence that "goes into" the physical world. I see really nothing more than a chemical process that embodies the "whole of life"
It is amazing that various fractal algorithms with random numbers and recursive subroutines can build and generate landscapes that are nearly indistinguishable from a real land scape which includes plants, land forms and cloud formations.

If you look at how a fractal works in math, one would see that fractals are maps of the simplest paths sliding up the scale of mathematical dimension.
Is this just an artifact of nature that we find exact analogies between these inherently existing mathematical forms and natural patterns, which include living creatures, planets, plants, landscapes, ocean foam, and even the way sand is distributed on a beach.

It has been shown time and time again that the physical world and nature are based on mathematical relationships by the way the atoms link together to form the physical constructs of everything from DNA to stars.

In nature, the math follows the most simplistic path from a high energy state to a ground state.

Intelligence seems nothing more than a by product of this relationship.

I do find it absolutely interesting and quite intriguing that such a system (life in general) can change its "behavior" to overcome environmental challenges that would/could otherwise lead to its extinction.

The very act of survival could be construed as an exercise in intelligence, the mere idea that the survival of life in inhospitable and extreme environments seems to actually show that trial and error would not actually seem to work unless there were some sort of biological mechanism that could "remember" what has not worked and trigger a "behavior" that is different from has been tried. Otherwise in my opinion, there would be no evolution and there would be no life.

on the other hand, one could assume that evolution would also follow the same pattern of nature which is trying to find the most simple path from point a to point b and the very act of survival is nothing more that natures way of taking the path of least resistance. Just like a fractal pattern.

No, I do not think that Nature is conscience, however part of me can argue to the other part of me that natural life and evolution can only work if there is a memory mechanism built into the biology of life.

sabianq · #8 (**permalink**) 03-July-2008, 01:28 PM

just for fun:
can you tell which is computer generated and which is real?

Cougar · #9 (**permalink**) 03-July-2008, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabianq

This almost could be argued that nature has the ability to reason.

But that would be wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabianq

However it can most certainly be argued that there is a "memory" mechanism built into biology otherwise evolution would be seemingly impossible.

I don't follow this at all. Does the "memory" you're talking really just mean "inheritable"? Species evolve when some small inheritable genetic variation or mutation in an individual causes a small physical variation that just happens to benefit that individual's survival and/or reproduction.

Our world overflows with peculiar, otherwise senseless shapes and behaviors that function only to promote victory in the great game of mating and reproduction. No other world but Darwin's would fill nature with such curiosities that weaken species and hinder good design but bring success where it really matters in Darwin's universe alone -- passing more genes to future generations. -- Steven Jay Gould

LotusExcelle · #10 (**permalink**) 03-July-2008, 07:11 PM

Regard to the pictures - I think they are all naturally occurring. Not one is a fake. (am i right?)

sabianq · #11 (**permalink**) 03-July-2008, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cougar

I don't follow this at all. Does the "memory" you're talking really just mean "inheritable"? Species evolve when some small inheritable genetic variation or mutation in an individual causes a small physical variation that just happens to benefit that individual's survival and/or reproduction.

It seems to me that animals possess a repertoire of inborn behaviors. Most of these behaviors are designed to help the animal survive. The animals continuously adjust and modify them to meet the requirements of the environment by learning.
When a task is learned that helps the animal do better and this "task" becomes an innate behavior that is "inheritable" by its offspring it is called "phenotypic plasticity" James Mark Baldwin (the ability of an organism to adjust to its environment during the course of its lifetime.)
"Thus a behavior that was once learned (the first step) may in time become instinctive (the second step)"

this in itself could be considered a "memory" and would help explain the evolution of any given species.

sabianq · #12 (**permalink**) 03-July-2008, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LotusExcelle

Regard to the pictures - I think they are all naturally occurring. Not one is a fake. (am i right?)

pretty cool eh?

1 romanesco cauliflower
2 Fungus (on a microscope slide)
3 Cabbage

pzkpfw · #13 (**permalink**) 03-July-2008, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabianq

just for fun:

Fun - yes, I love this stuff.

Simple rules = complexity.

The first time I got a nice big version of "life"^*, randomly seeded it, and after just a few generations had glider factories shooting gliders at each other... I was hooked on the idea.

* Life: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_Game_of_Life

sabianq · #14 (**permalink**) 03-July-2008, 08:09 PM

very cool
thanks for the link!

Jetlack · #15 (**permalink**) 04-July-2008, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabianq

very cool
thanks for the link!

After noticing this thread and another you started on QM you may want to have a look at Henry Stapp's various papers:

http://www-physics.lbl.gov/~stapp/stappfiles.html

Cougar · #16 (**permalink**) 05-July-2008, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabianq

It seems to me that animals possess a repertoire of inborn behaviors. Most of these behaviors are designed to help the animal survive.

So do humans. You ever been walking along a path in the mountains and suddenly come within four feet of a rattlesnake rattlin' away? You react!

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabianq

When a task is learned that helps the animal do better and this "task" becomes an innate behavior that is "inheritable" by its offspring it is called "phenotypic plasticity" James Mark Baldwin (the ability of an organism to adjust to its environment during the course of its lifetime.)

Er, this sounds like Lamarckism....

...Mendelian genetics supplanted the notion of inheritance of acquired traits, eventually leading to the development of the modern evolutionary synthesis, and the general abandonment of the Lamarckian theory of evolution in biology.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabianq

"Thus a behavior that was once learned (the first step) may in time become instinctive (the second step)"

"Instincts" must come from somewhere, sure, but they can't get to be inheritable via acquired learning. There may be an elaborate social structure built up with quick, effective learning, but to have some "inbred instinct" that gets expressed whether you're raised by wolves or not, that's got to come through the genes, roughly speaking. I suppose such behaviors are really just a level of increased acuity of some sense or another, a process that needs no nonstandard explanation.

sabianq · #17 (**permalink**) 05-July-2008, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cougar

So do humans. You ever been walking along a path in the mountains and suddenly come within four feet of a rattlesnake rattlin' away? You react!

not a rattle snake my friend, a very big 180 lb cat. you dont react, you freeze.
, That is instinct.

had to be learned at some point.

Quote:

Er, this sounds like Lamarckism....

...Mendelian genetics supplanted the notion of inheritance of acquired traits, eventually leading to the development of the modern evolutionary synthesis, and the general abandonment of the Lamarckian theory of evolution in biology.

not me
from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct

Quote:

The Baldwin effect functions in two steps. First, phenotypic plasticity allows an individual to adjust to a partially successful mutation, which might otherwise be utterly useless to the individual. If this mutation adds to inclusive fitness, it will succeed and proliferate in the population. Phenotypic plasticity is typically very costly for an individual; learning requires time and energy, and on occasion involves dangerous mistakes. Therefore there is a second step: provided enough time, evolution may find an inexorable mechanism to replace the plastic mechanism. Thus a behavior that was once learned (the first step) may in time become instinctive (the second step). At first glance, this looks identical to Lamarckian evolution, but there is no direct alteration of the genotype, based on the experience of the phenotype.

Quote:

"Instincts" must come from somewhere, sure, but they can't get to be inheritable via acquired learning. There may be an elaborate social structure built up with quick, effective learning, but to have some "inbred instinct" that gets expressed whether you're raised by wolves or not, that's got to come through the genes, roughly speaking. I suppose such behaviors are really just a level of increased acuity of some sense or another, a process that needs no nonstandard explanation.

even Lamarckian evolution which was abandoned suggests that a learned process can alter the gene causing a an innate behavior from a learned behavior, this theory was not just a musing, it was created from observation.

I see this as a "memory", what other way can this process be described?
Imprinting?

imprinting is a memory.
and memory is never perfect, I know it takes me more that one, two or three tries to learn something.