If you cannot be proud of the country you live in, change it.

That's a tough one. I've done a fair bit of stuff that would have got me shot 65 years ago. And when I bother to make an effort to change things it's generally to destroy or change our institutions. And looking back at my past I can see that there are things I'm glad I did and things I'm not glad I did, but to attribute any pride I may feel at my own actions to a polictical system, culture or race seem a non-sequitor. It just doesn't follow. For example, I don't go around feeling pride about being part of the carbon cycle even though it's a vital part of my life.

Very proud. Proud to have served this country in its defense a couple decades ago, and proud to have the right (and even the duty) to criticize my country when poor decisions are made, and rash actions are taken. I'll stop there to avoid banning.

Here's something I've been curious about for a while. Several posters have made statements as the following:

How do you know that you're the best country on Earth?

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I actually agree with several of the positive things that have been said about the U.S. in this thread. The U.S. has had a unique role in human history, if nothing else by finally showing to the world that democracy* is viable.

I think almost everyone everywhere is susceptible to some amount of patriotism -- I certainly am! But this seems like a bit more than that. Many Americans seem to take it for granted that their country is the greatest thing since sliced bread. But at the same time Americans (I'm not saying all) frequently express a lack of interest in foreign countries and cultures. So, how do you know?

I know this question is a bit bold, but it's sincere.

*Call it "republicanism" if you like. I trust you know what I mean.

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"All your bias are belong to us." Ara Pacis
"A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

This is all very subjective. However the American belief in superiority is no different than that same belief of superiority amongst the British and Europeans. I dont think its fair to label Americans as overtly patriotic compared to anyone else. The difference is that Americans are more direct and transparent about the self-belief. Most Americans are not embarassed by the patriotic sentiment in the same way as are the British or Europeans.

The current trend for Europeans kind of sneering at US culture and society is just another manifestation of "nationalism". The automatic assumption in the critique of all things American is that in comparison the European way is better.

Europeans on the whole admire self-denigration, and the fact is Americans dont do self-denigration very well

I dont know if the US is the greatest country but i think it is probably the most democratic when all is said and done. The fact ordinary Americans can chose party candidates with the primaries system, and there is a Presidential two-term limit, and there is a written constitution that safeguards the peoples rights as opposed to concentrating on how much power is retained by government - makes it, in my opinion, the best practical system yet developed for human democracy.

Thank you for your reply.

I think it is different, which is why I asked the question. Notice how Ronald Brak (and others) reacted to this question: he's Australian, but his reaction might as well have been European, or from most any other continent. To many of us, feeling proud of an accident of birth seems strange (or at least a little embarassing), and the idea that one's country is better than everyone else's seems exaggerated, if not even dangerous...

Of course, Europeans are constantly aware of the downside of nationalism because of the memory of the holocaust. Americans never let themselves go down that road. And I am not saying that there can't be legitimate, objective metrics in which the U.S. scores better than other countries.

I'm just asking: How do you know? Have you ever checked?

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"All your bias are belong to us." Ara Pacis
"A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

Perhaps if you toned the lead content of your wadding just a wee bit, say, from 100% to .00001%...

Would the redcoats you finally rounded up and stood up in front of the hill come to the same conclusion?

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I am Mugs, of the Alien clan of Usa, Nordamerica, a Terran, of Sol. Human.

Whoever says "perception is reality" is daft. It's merely an abstraction, and often not a very good one.

"To many of us, feeling proud of an accident of birth seems strange (or at least a little embarassing), and the idea that one's country is better than everyone else's seems exaggerated, if not even dangerous..."

I dont think it necessarily has to be dangerous. For instance, i am glad I was born into the Western developed world for purely rational motives such as a better quality of life. While that is still subjective; it appears to be a consensual view because people from developing countries are keen on migrating to the West, not so much the other way round. We have to be able to be honest that the Western world offers on average more security, better healthcare, and many more opportunities. If we cannot admit the obvious because of a fear that the sentiment will appear insensitive then it becomes harder to help those parts of the world match our own for quality of life.

National patriotism is just a scaled down version of that same sense of superiority humans feel on a wider level about east/west, or developed/developing world.

"I'm just asking: How do you know? Have you ever checked?"

I've not said the US is the greatest country in the world. I just said it has the fairest type of democracy yet developed - in my opinion. Some people love coffee and others love tea. Its all subjective.

I certainly agree about being glad to have been born in a country (and a class) where I can enjoy a certain amount of comfort and freedom. But the word I seem to see most often is "proud". Isn't there a difference between the two?

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"All your bias are belong to us." Ara Pacis
"A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

I really doubt that. I'm an American who has lived both in the US and abroad, and my own experience is that there is nothing better about Americans than people from other countries. I've seen kindness and humility but also arrogance and pettiness among people from a lot of different countries. I just can't really see that much of a difference, that's all.

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As above, so below

1) When the crap hits the fan, who is it the world expects to come to their rescue?

Russia?

China?

The EU?

Yeah...right.

Foreign aide flows out of this country like a bad case of diarrhea whenever anyone else in the world finds themselves on the ropes, it took two massive hurricanes and severe government mismanagement to put us in a position of needing token assistance in '05 and '06.

The one thing I'm actually happy with the current president for doing is actually souring people on the idea of accepting American aide.

2) Not only do our taxes represent the largest economy on the planet, the foreign aide that comes out of it represents a significant measure of GDP for the countries that receive it. Some people call us "colonialist", I call it making damned sure our investment is well spent.

3) We're the reason Europe has had massive amounts of money to spend on social welfare. Think about how the continent would look if they'd have had to spend an equivalent percentage of tax income on covering their own backs, if the US had shown no interest in it.

4) Footprints on the Moon.


Do we have flaws? Oh yeah, we have flaws. We screw up, we make bad decisions, and we've had some things blow up in our face, and yes...we gave the world Hollywood celebrities (sorry 'bout that).

The US has only had its position as a global leader since 1943, and I think in the last 65 years, we've managed to do more good in the world than the last dominant global empire...I'm looking at you, Britain. Shall we go into your record for comparison?

Let's not. It's not my wish to invite any kind of specific head-to-head comparison or tit-for-tat.

My question is focused on the U.S., its citizens, and how they feel about their country.

My thanks to all who have replied so far.

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"All your bias are belong to us." Ara Pacis
"A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

"I certainly agree about being glad to have been born in a country (and a class) where I can enjoy a certain amount of comfort and freedom. But the word I seem to see most often is "proud". Isn't there a difference between the two?"

If citizens of any nation perceive that things in their own country are as good as it gets then they probably project that national confidence in the form of pride. But there are far uglier displays of patriotism from the British with their habit of booing other's national anthems. That is a very British malaise and one might argue its a far worse form of jingosim than any expressed by Americans.

Like i said earlier i dont see why Americans are being singled out as uniquely nationalistic or patriotic.

Thank you Jens!
You wrap it up succinctly, in a nutshell!

Happy celebrations to our fellow BAUTers, over there!

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clear skies

If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe. CARL SAGAN

oh thanks mugs!
I missed the poll....I am not an American or whathaveyou! I am an Earthling!
First and foremost! And grateful for everything I have shared with my fellow Earthlings!

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clear skies

If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe. CARL SAGAN

Unfortunately, soccer fandom attracts the worst kind of people, along with plenty of ordinary folks. It's not just the British, though, and I really don't wish to particularise the issue. Still, it's an interesting observation that, as far as sports are concerned, American fans are clearly more well behaved than European fans. You certainly win under this metric.

Because this thread is about being an American. I'm not trying to claim that Americans are more capable of being nationalistic than people of other nationalities. But it's a different kind of nationalism, in some ways, when it's there. In Europe, you'll only hear extreme nationalists (the xenophobe-neonazi types) talk at length about how they're proud of their country. There is patriotism, yes -- and jingoism too, unquestionably -- but it's different. In the U.S., pride in one's country seems to be much more mainstream. It's these differences that interest me.

You suggest in your post that this is for objective reasons: 'if citizens of any nation perceive that things in their own country are as good as it gets then they probably project that national confidence in the form of pride.' But do other people accept the conclusion without even checking the premises?

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"All your bias are belong to us." Ara Pacis
"A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

Absolutely I am proud. I was born overseas and have been around the world and while I appreciate and admire other lands and cultures, I feel fortunate to be an American.

Well, to be perfectly logical, I can really only say the US is the best of those countries I've been to. Still, even without having been to a majority of other countries, I suspect we're still the best--after all, we've been the solution to so many world problems, and we've been the guiding ideal in the formation of democracies around the world. And to paraphrase Mark Twain, Democracy is a terrible system of government, except that all the others are worse.

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Todd (Bowie, MD, US, North America, Earth, Sol System, Vega region, Local Bubble, Orion arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Virgo A Cluster, Virgo supercluster, the universe in which spock is clean shaven)

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

personal page: http://blog.astrosketches.info