JoeBoy, I agree with you.
Over-all, I'm impressed by how well cosmicdave kept his cool, really.
He must have been feeling browbeaten, frustrated, accused and very defensive. Yet he still managed to maintain his argument (even when I disagree) without resorting to shouting matches or blatant ad hom attacks. I think he handled himself better than I usually do...

But there is something about a belief, especially when it's deep rooted and life long- that makes it extremely hard to shake. It is not just that it's a belief- but that it is a major part of you. Take that kind of belief away from someone and they find themselves questioning Everything.

The best I could hope for (slim hope, I'll admit) is to plant the seed in Cosmicdave's mind and hope, that in time, maybe even a long time, it sprouts and grows.

Cosmicdave, I'll stop talking about you like you can't see it now- and say directly to you: You have many misconceptions about science, the scientific method and the Skeptic mind. I know that you do not think that you do- But you really do. JoeBoy posted in the same vein, he and I both come from a background in which we were believers in "woo" or paranormal or the Divine- etc.
But (Although Joeboy is getting there, he's not quite there yet) I learned that much of my past experiences were also Biased- based by my minds mechanisms, not based on paranormal existence outside of my mind.
Over time, as I really looked at them, my mind unraveled the illusions I created for myself, I saw first hand the reality and was even a bit amazed that my memories could fog themselves up- and more amazed that a little scientific introspection could unfog them.

But see, no one here is trying to "take away" a belief. Rather, they are trying to give you something.
You claim that we don't believe just because we cannot "see" ghosts.
But in science, you can see anything- as long as it actually has any form of existence.
I cannot see a planet around another star.
I cannot see magnetic fields.
I can't even see electricity.
I can't see quarks.
I can't see relativity.

But I can see the gravitational tug on said star
I can see readings on an instrument that can detect and measure magnetic fields.
I can use a voltmeter.
I can measure particle interactions.
I can observe relativistic distortion.

You claim you believe in ghosts because of sitings going back several hundred years.
Well, there are sightings of demons, elves, gnomes, fairy's, Irish Wee Folk, Dragons, nymphs, jackalopes, and what have you going back just as far. Superstition is nothing new. It goes back to the old days when the common man did not have science to explain the world, so they imaginatively invented what they considered to be plausible explanations.But those explanations were superstition and wildly inaccurate.

You don't believe in ghosts because you actually have a true reason to.
You believe because you always have.
And you want to continue to believe.
You ghost hunt looking for anything to reinforce your belief and you attribute anything that you think might be out of the ordinary to ghosts without scientifically checking the actual cause of the supposed anomaly.

I, for one, do not believe you have the intent to lie. But you are not going to let a little truth stand in the way of your beliefs or arguments either.
You may not intend to mislead- but you do it anyway.

In the meantime, I look forward to your continued contributions on BAUT and even future debates.

Well said Neverfly. In hindsight I think I may have been a little over the top in my postings regarding Dave. I truly admire his composure when under unrelenting pressure. I also agree with you that Dave's intentions were not to be overtly dishonest or misleading. From my perspective, if I found myself in his situation during much of this debate I would likely have been banned from the forum for, well, ad-homs at the very least. It certainly wouldn't be in my best interest to speculate on how nasty I could have become under those circumstances. I too need improvement in many areas.

In my opinion you gave Dave some well thought out and valuable advice. I hope he at least ponders it and puts some of it to good use. He's a bright guy and I think his potential for change is well within reach. I want to be careful here as I am certainly no authority on human behavior etc. so I don't want to appear to be talking down to Dave or standing on a soap box. I too could benefit from the same advice.

This is a good place to debate and learn. There is fun to be had here also and the majority of the membership seems to be a bunch of great guys and gals. I set my ego aside here and found that there is twice as much to be learned without it.

Just one thing, what were those disclaimers about at the end of your post!!??! Am I missing something?

Kindest regards--Joe

I will dangit!
Cosmic, stop being so stubborn and use your brain!

Joeboy, I'm not as optimistic as you are, I think the needle's stuck in the groove.

People keep accusing me of being the opposite gender of that which I actually am
Actually, that sig line was in humor and won't last for very much longer.

I'm about as, "leave me alone if you're a guy" as it gets. Kind of mean at times too. If anyone would have suspected you were anything other than another mean and snappy guy it would be me. That's a real head scratcher man! I don't think the problem lies with you, it would seem that the observer or observers are flawed to say the least. What a joke. You are probably right about Dave, but you did what you could. Not your job or mine to make the world right. You did your best. Thanks for the chat--you have my respect--later--joe

Your avatar has a pink crescent with purty flowers...

is this another cold reading .. about genders and avatars......

Thanks honey, I did it for what else? A young lass member of import. The only animal that could ever keep me in line for any length of time. Temporary measure to show sensitivity. Was accused of being too mean. Ha. Just looking at it makes me want to hurt people. There, see, I'm coming back already . . . I feel better now--- xx-joe