Do you believe in ghosts? post your experiences - Page 3

Jens · #61 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicdave

I wish to God that the same thing happens to you my friend then perhaps you wont be so closed minded and abrupt to people who have witnessed things that neither you or I can rationally explain.

Is it somehow distressing to you that many people don't believe you?

neilzero · #62 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 03:18 AM

In my 76 years, I have had zero ghost and ET experiences that I am aware of, and I have a good memory for details and a willingness to believe. That of course does not mean the experieces of others are mistaken interpretations. Science typically deals only in things for which there is compelling evidence, but there does seem to be exceptions in astronomy and some areas of physics, such as quantum therory, so why not ghosts and ET? There are millions of experiencers, far more than for black holes or quantum. Neil

TrAI · #63 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicdave

OK then - explain this. We had a pair of scissors that were always kept in a certain drawer. Those scissors went missing for 3 months. Nobody in the house had touched them and yet they appeared back in the draw (right on top) as if they had never disappeared.

I would be interested to hear your explanation as to why we couldn't see those scissors for 3 months.

Thats not ghosts, you know...

Over here we have myths about husnisser, they may pull pranks like that, or do them as punishment if they do not feel appreciated. If they are happy they might help you and protect your property. Many countries have similar mythological creatures, brownies, domovoi, kobolds, sashikiwarashi and so on.

Van Rijn · #64 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose

Last point for tonight, I promise. A few years ago, I spent no less than 30 minutes searching for my glasses. I ransacked the house, no glasses.

The penny dropped when it dawned on me that I could see far better than I should have been able to. The glasses turned out to be exactly where I'd left them. On my nose.

I don't remember the name of it, but there is a common perception issue where one might look straight at something and not recognize it, because you don't expect it to be there. People often also don't remember where they set common objects down last. When one does finally recognize where an item has been placed, it "jumps" into one's perception. That does not mean anything supernatural happened.

I've mentioned this story a few times: Long ago I noticed that if you place a piece of paper on a TV (CRT) screen, it would "stick." I've used this a couple of times: Take a paper someone is looking for (a letter, for instance), place it on the screen, then tell them that the paper is in the room in plain sight.

It's interesting to watch their eyes looking right across the TV and ignoring it. Oh, they'll look on the top of the TV, but flatly ignore the screen itself. I've had to point it out before they noticed.

Van Rijn · #65 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose

Before I comment further, I want you to realize that I don't know your brother, and in no way am I drawing conclusions, making assumptions, or implying anything about his character.

Same disclaimer for the following comments. My oldest sister told many scary stories when she'd come to visit when I was a kid. I remember one time she talked about the "dark spirits" that had come out of a mirror (she'd been trying to use a crystal ball, I think, and said she found out she was doing something wrong). I remember she said she used blue candles and some other things to ward off the bad spirits.

Now, understand that I was maybe seven at the time, and took this sort of thing pretty seriously then. Her stories led to more than a few nightmares. On the positive side, she's probably a good part of the reason I learned to be skeptical.

Anyway, I didn't know it then, but I learned years later that she had been experimenting with various drugs, including LSD. The stories made a lot more sense then.

Kaptain K · #66 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 05:16 AM

cosmicdave,
No matter what you say, it can never be more than hearsay to us. Sorry, but that's the real world. Live with it.

laurele · #67 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 05:36 AM

"If it cannot be measured, what grounds is there to think it can still exist? It may not mean it cannot exist, but it can mean that it most likely does not exist."

The problem with this statement is that, if applied several hundred years ago, it would preclude many astronomical phenomena known today--exoplanets, black holes, galaxies, even Uranus, Neptune and Pluto--from existing because we had no means of measuring them. Yet they did and do exist.

I see this issue as not one of one view being "right" and the other "wrong," but very much akin to any question of belief. It belongs in the same category as religious questions such as, "Is there a God?" "does prayer work?" "did such and such miracle happen 2,000 years ago?" etc. All of these are really matters of faith; if it works for someone to believe in them, that's fine. If others see these things as fairy tales, that's fine too. Even among scientists, there are believing members of various religions as well as skeptics. There is also a middle position akin to that of the agnostic, who doesn't say for certain that no deity exists but simply states, "I don't know." That is what I was trying to convey in my initial post on this topic.

Whirlpool · #68 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 06:21 AM

CosmicDave

Quote:

Because if you had read my original post regarding the incident you would realise that the guys son and daughter in law were there with us. There was me, my brother, friend and the guys son and daughter in law on the ghost hunt. The spot where his dad died was at the top of the drive of her fathers house. How could my brother possibly even guess that our mates dad was at the father in laws house when he died? Also, the spot where he died was on a country road in the middle of knowhere.

Seems like your mind has set with your group to experience such one.

Quote:

I have nothing to justify. What I am telling you is 100% truth. If you wish to not believe it then that is your choice.

You know what they say... 'you have to see to believe.'

This is a Science & Astronomy Forum , not Psychic & Astrology Forum. People here doesn't need to see , Facts and Scientific Evidence are needed to back up your claim.

Quote:

You know Neverfly, there was a guy with exactly the same standpoint as you around a year ago on the Most Haunted forum. He didn't believe anything and said that because science couldn't prove it then it was all nonsense.

Maybe because he started hanging with those kinds of forums that his way mind was converted into one.
Environment, Family , Race, Culture and etc are factors that affect in how we perceive things. It's like if our mind is set to think there are spirits or ghosts , then most likely our brains will produce it.

Quote:

I wish to God that the same thing happens to you my friend then perhaps you wont be so closed minded and abrupt to people who have witnessed things that neither you or I can rationally explain.

Why is it hard to accept that Neverfly or almost everyone else doesn't buy what you believe in that you WISH it will happen to them?

Jens · #69 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laurele

"If it cannot be measured, what grounds is there to think it can still exist? It may not mean it cannot exist, but it can mean that it most likely does not exist."

The problem with this statement is that, if applied several hundred years ago, it would preclude many astronomical phenomena known today--exoplanets, black holes, galaxies, even Uranus, Neptune and Pluto--from existing because we had no means of measuring them.

Not really. Just taking the example of the three planets, it was in fact unlikely that they existed. It would have been irrational for a person 1000 years ago to have said, "I believe there are three planets in those orbits," just as it would be irrational for me to say today, "I think there is an asteroid coming straight toward us from the direction of the sun, so it hasn't been detected yet, and will strike the earth tomorrow and wipe us all out." I could be right, but the chances are "likely that it does not exist." That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just that it is unlikely to. So in other words, several hundred years ago, it would be quite appropriate not to believe in those phenomena.

Neverfly · #70 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laurele

"If it cannot be measured, what grounds is there to think it can still exist? It may not mean it cannot exist, but it can mean that it most likely does not exist."
The problem with this statement is that, if applied several hundred years ago, it would preclude many astronomical phenomena known today--exoplanets, black holes, galaxies, even Uranus, Neptune and Pluto--from existing because we had no means of measuring them. Yet they did and do exist.

I see this issue as not one of one view being "right" and the other "wrong," but very much akin to any question of belief. It belongs in the same category as religious questions such as, "Is there a God?" "does prayer work?" "did such and such miracle happen 2,000 years ago?" etc. All of these are really matters of faith; if it works for someone to believe in them, that's fine. If others see these things as fairy tales, that's fine too. Even among scientists, there are believing members of various religions as well as skeptics. There is also a middle position akin to that of the agnostic, who doesn't say for certain that no deity exists but simply states, "I don't know." That is what I was trying to convey in my initial post on this topic.

Jens and Whirlpool are a hard act to follow here but: Two posts.

IF applied several hundred years ago?
There you go going back in time again, appealing to ignorance.

Here is the problem: Those planets were measurable then too!
They just had not been yet.
And actually, quite a lot was measurable and known, including that the Earth was round, it's circumference and that it did not sit in the center. But these were repressed by the "Belief Standard."
Today, planets are measurable around other stars. We may not know all the planets out there yet, but it is possible, it's always been, we can. There are limits to how far we can measure as well.

But with ghosts, spirits, elves, goblins and fairies, that same principle remains. It's measurable in the sense of recognizing the chemistry, psychology, history too. Not just measuring it with an ectoplasm meter.
Ghosts have never demonstrated any measurability- and never will- This is the stance of occultists.
It not only can't be but never will be. The claim is that it is not of our realm. They even try citing other dimensions etc, with no understanding of what dimensions are.
We CAN measure most of what these claimants are saying is involved and all measurements don't produce squat.

And lastly, I repeat, ghosts, gremlins and fairies are the remnants of the old days- the explanations given for what the people do not understand. Like demons for virus' or bacteria making people sick.
Claiming that those explanations, by default, must be entertained by scientific principle is the same as saying that even though TODAY, I know it is parents that place the gifts under the Christmas tree, I should also continue to accept that Santa Clause is doing it all around the world at Midnight with magical reindeer and sleigh- In spite of the overwhelming contradictory evidence of the toys appearing in Toys R Us ads, The physics of the thing and lack of magic in any practical application. For no other reason that maybe I have not yet developed a fast enough strobe light and photography system to snap a picture of Santa yet.
After all- The cookies disappear!
Explain THAT non-believer!

Neverfly · #71 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 08:58 AM

CosmicDave
One more thing...

You assume I have not ever witnessed 'paranormal' activity or ghost hunts or psychic readings in my life.

What- you think I've been living in a box!?!?

Of course I have. In my earlier years I've been scared and spooked by spirits and sprites too.

I also grew up, learned some science and realized I was wrong. I realized how a bit of psychology can alter perception. I realized that the Real World has little need, much less room, for ghosts et al.

Don't assume I've never witnessed so easily. I have- quite a lot.
I just have a better understanding now than I did back then so I no longer entertain such flights of fancy.

Neverfly · #72 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 09:34 AM

Ok, one more post - I can't help myself.

Can someone, please, explain to me- What IS this elusive thing we cannot measure with our Measure-a-scopes?!?!

Someone tell me

What, exactly, is this "thing" we are unable to "measure?"

If I see a ghost, understanding the principles of spectrophotometry, I know that I can make measurements of light.
Yet, that turns up nothing. If I say I heard the ghost burp- I can measure sound - yet nothing appears on our 'sound-a-scopes.'
Next we get out all kinds of electrical transfer-o-meters and knick knacks and paddywhacks and scan the area throroughly for all electrical fields, magnetic fields, freaking neutrinos- Whatever!

Nothing.

So what IS this unmeasurable something that creates light and sound that we are perfectly capable of measuring, calculating and studying etc- and yet we can't?

I know that no one has answered me about why a digital camera magically takes pictures of ghosts like an analog camera ( I didn't expect a response to that anyway) but I really would like to know- Why is it that no matter how much we can scan and measure and turn up Nada- you only need to claim that in spite of the fact we can measure light and sound and electrical and chemical - we just can't measure those Same Things if made by a myth?

I could guess.

It might fall into similar a category as Van Rijn's Elf.

LotusExcelle · #73 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 11:28 AM

You can't measure Belief in the Not-There. why? Because it isn't there. Never was. Never will be.

astromark · #74 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 11:44 AM

I know what it is....

This elusive unmeasurable force.

This apparent entity that frequents this place as if it were real yet has thus far remained unmeasurable.

Yes after years of meticulous research and the reading of hundreds of accounts pertaining to 'Ghost' like phenomena a result has been arrived at.

Just as Earth visitations by alien beings has not been confirmed by factual referencing so to can this subject be filled.

That the existence of paranormal beings. being spirit or entity alike is utter rubbish.

I now invite you to PROVE me wrong... Go on, do it.

But do be careful. I am going to need more than your word. Real PROOF that comprises of substantial evidence supported by facts....

Obviously I to am willing to equal scrutiny. I will gladly examen any proof offered and present it for ridacule...

for the sake of your sanity and mine, do not bother.

On this subject I am going to be difficult to sway... but I enjoy a challenge, Mark.

Neverfly · #75 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LotusExcelle

You can't measure Belief in the Not-There. why? Because it isn't there. Never was. Never will be.

True

But I'm trying to help Laurele see and understand the trap she fell into.
Her two posts claim an ignorance factor and that if we possibly don't know- we shouldn't assume there are no ghosts.

The trap in that is that first you must have a basis for saying we are ignorant.
Thus; I asked what is this mysterious quantity that we can't measure.

Our eyes and ears are sensory organs. They work because of the known principles of physics. Of light and sound and vibration and fluid mechanics. We actually are not so ignorant. We can measure quite a lot! If we see and hear ghosts, can capture them on film, they MUST be measurable by our instruments that go above and beyond what our eyes and ears do.
Except that the trick of the claim is that there is something we can't measure- then specify what that is.

In asking the question- it exposes the trick and the fallacy of the claim.

If Laurele claims there is a planet in orbit around Pollux, I may not know if there really is one, but I may question the BASIS by which she makes the claim. If the claim can't be substantiated- then i won't know if there is a planet around Pollux.
But these ghosts and elves and fairies are not around Pollux. They are RIGHT HERE and Operating under the same laws of physics that make them testable, measurable, detectable as bacteria, protons, magnetic fields and everything else.
We are NOT ignorant. It is NOT a mystery. We are NOT unable to measure. The claim is false- a trick to lure you into thinking there is an ignorance factor whether there truly is one or not. The claim starts out with the base assumption we must be ignorant. I am asking what we are ignorant about. Because the analogy of the distant planet doesn't hold compared to the ghost underneath instruments that are capable of measuring and detecting chemical, spectral, molecular, radio-active or other effects that ghosts supposedly create (Motion, light, sound etc.)

LotusExcelle · #76 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 11:48 AM

It also poses the trick of human perception which is this: it is easily fooled. Even repeated viewings of a video containing something mundane can often trigger the brain into still seeing the extraordinary. And beyond that - electronics can be a means to an end rather than an impartial observer... depending on the intention of the operator.

astromark · #77 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 11:58 AM

Belief... ideas arrived at by careful scrutiny of scientific facts, yes if that definition works for you then we are on firm ground.
Faith ... I have a faith and a empathy for my fellow man... I have faith in the scientific method, but faith in humanity is not the same as 'The Faith' of which I have none.

cosmicdave · #78 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Whenever he's ready, your brother may go collect his million from James Randi.

I have heard of many instances where psychics have taken his test and when they pass he changes the rules.

What would James Randi know about being a medium when he is a magician? Both are completely different fields. I also remember when James Randi said that there was going to be a big UFO landing and it never happened!

LotusExcelle · #79 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 12:12 PM

I don't even know where to begin on that one. My brain exploded.

Whirlpool · #80 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 12:14 PM

Talking to someone online and discussing this "Phenomenal Topic". I like to share it here .

For people who are easily believed , can be tricked ,will take it as something real.
Mind setting or the brain of the person isn't that deeply rooted with what he believes to be real is most likely be easily swayed and fooled and fell into this trap of illusion.

I think its universal, whether it be ghosts or not.
Like Magicians, they are illusionist. I believe psychics are too.
People can be easily be fooled by these styles, why , because they are extraordinary, mysterious, mind-boggling ,"SCARY".

Those who are weak in what they believe to be real and most likely to dwell on illusions. Even if the person claims he doesn't believe into such things,but still have the possibility to fall into the tricks set by the illusionist.

Because Illusionists, perfected the trick.They know where and when they will attack the persons weakness.

So much for that, now I have to watch some Hollywood Horror Movies.

Neverfly · #81 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicdave

I have heard of many instances where psychics have taken his test and when they pass he changes the rules.

Evidence?
Post links please. Citations.
I have heard a FEW claims that he changed the rules when the 'psychic passed' the test. But under further scrutiny it is shown to be a bitter claimant that didn't make the grade trying to raise doubts AFTER he had already failed. This happens in most any competition time to time, including the Olympics etc. Someone feels cheated after the fact and tries to claim that they actually were. Maybe in their minds, it really seems so.
Another instance was where the test itself had a fault- and Randi saw to it that fault was corrected. After that, the "psychic" AGREED to continue with the corrections in place. But after failing the challenge, changed his mind and tried to cry foul.
I, too, will look for citations and links along side yours CosmicDave

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicdave

What would James Randi know about being a medium when he is a magician? Both are completely different fields. I also remember when James Randi said that there was going to be a big UFO landing and it never happened!

Randi is, as Whirlpool illustrated above, very familiar with the Illusionist tricks. They are not completely different fields. You claiming that they are does not make it so.
Magicians (that claim True Magic) and Mediums both require a special plane, a spirit world, paranormal or supernatural powers of divine intervention. They are birds of a feather.

As far as Randi predicting a UFO landing that never happened, I don't know anything about the story. But that sounds very out of character for Randi and I would guess that you are completely misrepresenting what actually happened.

ETA: Cosmicdave, you seem to be cherry picking what statements and questions will you address and which you won't.
Will you please answer (from above):
1.) Why digital Cameras are able to photograph ghosts? (post 17)
2.) What is the mysterious immeasurable "thing?" (post 72)
You are not required to answer those questions, of course and if you refuse to do so or ignore them still, I will simply accept that as an inability on your part to answer them.

Peace Makes Plenty · #82 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 12:36 PM

Neilzero:

What is being pointed out is that the experiences themselves are purely subjective and can be replicated by a reasonably proficient magician or con-artist. Cosmicdave is making bold claims, and not providing anything in the way of evidence to back those claims up.

Moose, Neverfly, Whirlpool, Jens and Tobin Dax have all highlighted examples of this.

Its not impossible that what he's says is true, but just because something cannot be shown to be impossible, doesn't make what he claims is in any way plausible.

Humans attribute random occurences to their own and others actions all the time, have you ever owned a pair of lucky pants? The fact that people believe in something doesn't make it so. People believe in some very wierd things. The Apollo Hoax is a perfect example of that.

There is no verifiable evidence for ghosts or psychic phenomena.

ET is slightly different, its more plausible that there is a form of life out there, thats a prediction based on available evidence. Not an assertion based on belief and a lack of evidence. The Mars missions may well show us ET exists.

*ET meaning Extra-Terrestrial Life - unless you are referring to greys/nordics/reptilians - in which case there is no evidence.

--

Quote:

I have heard of many instances where psychics have taken his test and when they pass he changes the rules.

What would James Randi know about being a medium when he is a magician? Both are completely different fields. I also remember when James Randi said that there was going to be a big UFO landing and it never happened!

And since what you heard bolstered your beliefs, you took it as fact? There have been attempts to 'debunk' Randi before, none have been successful. But if you know different, please share.

cosmicdave · #83 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose

Yeah, that's just weak. A depressingly large percentage of the population will lap it up, though.

Before I comment further, I want you to realize that I don't know your brother, and in no way am I drawing conclusions, making assumptions, or implying anything about his character. But you didn't ask what your brother did. I can't answer that. Instead, you asked how he could have done it, and that's the question I'm going to answer.

That said, given a hypothetical third party about which the same claims were made, the very first thing I would investigate is the possibility of hot reading.

Professional psychics and faith healers often use techniques called hot reading to augment their cold reading performances. Hot reading is where you have specific knowledge of the subject before the reading.

Ancestor surnames aren't hard to get. You'd be surprised just how many genealogy databases there are out there, and what's in your local public archives. If you're catholic and haven't moved around a lot, you can usually get fairly detailed family tree records to a few generations back. (I worked on my church's parishioner census updating these records before I renounced, before I started my second year of college. There's a fair chance that given some personal information about you, and the run of your home area, that I could have gotten your granddad's surname without much trouble or expense.

Pointing out the exact spot of a death isn't difficult. There are two ways to do it. Let me pose you a hypothetical: you and I are walking down a certain street in my parents' city. I grab your arm very suddenly, and say that a motorcyclist died at this very spot, and that I sense great regret. How would you say I did that?

Well, if you were me, you'd know two things:

1) A motorcyclist really did die at that spot, being just up the street from my folks' house. The guy was street racing with two of his buddies. An elderly driver pulled out of a blind intersection behind two of the bikers and took out the third who left his bike in the old guy's engine compartment. He probably had just enough time to realize he was dead before he landed. According to the news report, he died shortly after the paramedics arrived.

I saw the leading bike scream past, while the trailing biker looked over his shoulder, stopped, turned around and went back to see where his buddy disappeared to. I went up the hill myself to have a look, and saw the wreck. A school acquaintance of mine witnessed the crash, and she told me the rest of the detail.

2) You'd have no convenient way to verify that sort of claim in my folks hometown, especially if I left out a few details, such as the year. You'd either have to accept the claim on its face, or decline to believe it.

Either way, I'd have replicated your brother's feat through trickery.

This is basically called the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy, which psychics use to reinforce vague predictions.The Texas Sharpshooter fallacy is where you throw a guess out there, see if and where it hits, then paint the bullseye around the bullet hole. (Remember that the misses basically get forgotten, while the hits get reinforced. Confirmation bias is a very well known phenomenon in psychology. It's the main reason science has to be very strict about experimental design controls.)

I'm going to make you a roughly equivalent prediction: "I see a silver or grey Corolla in your future. I don't know where, or how, but you're going to encounter one in some unspecified time frame. Beware this Corolla. But be reassured, if you are vigilant, you can avoid harm."

Get back to me in the next week or two, and give me a rough guess how many silver or grey Corollas you've seen, and how many times you've managed to survive seeing one. Serious aside: if you do somehow manage to get taken out by a Corolla at some point in the next 80 years or so, there's a money-back guarantee on this prediction.

[Edit to add: I should note that even if you do get killed by a Corolla, if you'll forgive the pun, it's still a hit. You simply weren't vigilant enough. Psychics have been known to play the blame the victim card. Sylvia Browne is notorious for this sort of atrocity.]

Not really. See my Corolla example. Feel free to replace the word Corolla with something less common, like a white '57 T-Bird or something. So long as I decline to give you a time frame, the prediction remains equally valid. Sooner or later, you'll see one in a car calendar belonging to your mechanic, and you'll live to walk away from it. And that's every bit as much a hit as it was for your flower lady.

Except for the pub in Wales part, you've just described my mother's adoptive dad, as well as my unofficial granddad, and at least a half-dozen of my great-uncles. It would not surprise me if there were at least one granddad of 80% of the western population of 30-somethings. Pipes and tribys were exceptionally popular in the later stages of life of that generation.

And this leads to my last point for tonight: psychics make better guesses when they play to the probabilities. Like my Corolla prediction above. Here in Eastern Canada, it's very likely you'd survive seeing a Corolla within minutes of next leaving your house. In the UK, I'd probably issue such a prediction citing a silver Mercedes or BMW, with considerable confidence. Although I wouldn't be quite as certain about your survival. How on earth do you folks cope with driving on the left through those insane rotaries?

I'll check in tomorrow, but the short answer is, everything you've said your brother has done is well within my ability to duplicate through some combination of trickery or applied psychology. I know how. I have the technology.

It is possible that your brother may be using these methods, or similar means, either consciously, or (less likely, but still possibly) instinctively. He wouldn't be the first by any stretch.

Ok then, lets put you in exactly the same situation. Get one of your buddies to invite around one of his friends that you have never met and who you dont know what his name is. Put him on a chair in your living room and then tell him what his surname is on the very first try. Don't ask him any questions, just give him information that you are getting about him and then come back and tell me if you were right.

Then go onto tell him about his grandmother, the name of the street where she lived and the number of her house. You can even tell him the colour of the front door. Remember that you cannot ask any questions.

Now can you see the difference?

And as for the motorcyclist example, I don't think you guys quite understand how a spiritualist church meeting works? The motorcyclists father turned up one week and was unknown to anybody in the circle. My brother was in contact with the ghost of his dead son and described the accident and also the spot where it happened. What exactly would be the odds of not only picking up on the motorcyclist, but being able to exactly name the spot at which he died?

This is how it works. You sit in a circle and go into meditation, then a stranger is asked to sit within the circle and the head medium goes around the circle asking what messages they got for that person. Some come up with nothing and others come up with very specific evidence. Things like dates of anniversaries, names, ways in which a relative died or places that they lived.

And all the time this person isn't even saying anything until the reading is over. Now, if you or anybody else can do that on your own by simple body language, I will be the first person to buy you a beer.

cosmicdave · #84 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose

Last point for tonight, I promise. A few years ago, I spent no less than 30 minutes searching for my glasses. I ransacked the house, no glasses.

The penny dropped when it dawned on me that I could see far better than I should have been able to. The glasses turned out to be exactly where I'd left them. On my nose.

1) Your pair of scissors were always kept in the same drawer, except apparently for those three months where you, or someone else, used them elsewhere and didn't put them away at the same spot, then promptly forgot about it. They turned up later when someone else found them, put them back in the drawer and forgot they'd done so.

2) Alternatively, the scissors got covered up at some point. Three months later, someone used them and put them down at the top of the drawer.

No, the scissors were kept in a cuttlery drawer and we took everything out looking for them. As I said earlier, only myself and my brother are in the house. Neither of us put the scissors back but there they were right on top of the drawer 3 months later.

Here's another example. One day we returned from work and heard a noise upstairs. When my brother entered his room there was a large pile of books neatly stacked upon his bed. Neither of us had put them there and they had magically taken themselves off the shelf and neatly piled on the bed!

cosmicdave · #85 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens

Is it somehow distressing to you that many people don't believe you?

Yes it is. Because they are narrowminded. Their belief is that because science cannot measure it then it cannot exist. Well lets take into consideration that sight is one of the 5 senses. Taste is also one of the senses and yet science cannot measure taste, but we all know that we eat things that have a different taste to them.

LotusExcelle · #86 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 01:07 PM

Science cannot measure taste? That's weird. I could have sworn we'd identified the sensors on the tongue that initially sense this, then I thought we also had identified the section of the brain that fires when we taste things. Also I could have sworn we also figured out that smell has a lot to do with taste. And I *really* could have sworn we knew which things tasted like what depending on their chemical composition. I never knew we didn't know this stuff!

Neverfly · #87 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicdave

Yes it is. Because they are narrowminded. Their belief is that because science cannot measure it then it cannot exist. Well lets take into consideration that sight is one of the 5 senses. Taste is also one of the senses and yet science cannot measure taste, but we all know that we eat things that have a different taste to them.

I've covered this. You are wrong.
Science can measure them.

Science can also measure taste.

Neverfly · #88 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 01:33 PM

One of the things I notice come up frequently with 'believers' of any paranormal claims is that there exist things outside of science, not understandable or explainable by science or not of our realm.

These claims make no sense because Science is the process of understanding the Universe. If it exists- it MUST fall under the same category.

The claim is nothing more than another trick- and a total cop out.

Of Jorge Bartholemew Bartlby the III believes in a Nasal Deity that steals underwear and outlines tales of missing crotch covers... he can claim that it's belief and falls outside the realm of science and, therefore, can't be explained.
But Psychology, neurology and determinism all fall within the realm of science and can explain quite well the nature of Jorge's belief.
The only problem is that Jorge won't like that explanation very much.

Moose · #89 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicdave

I have heard of many instances where psychics have taken his test and when they pass he changes the rules.

You're listening to the wrong people, Dave. That's a talking point, and a tired one as well.

Yes, lots of professional psychics (the fraudulent ones like Browne, Van Praag, Edwards) all parrot that claim. You and I both know they're not above lying to their victims, why would you expect they're above lying to you in order to save face?

No. James Randi does not change the rules of individual tests. Testing protocols are proposed by the psychic, and either accepted or rejected (with suggestions) by JREF. The test never proceeds until both parties are in agreement as to the rules of the test. Once the protocol is signed off, it's carved in stone, figurative speaking.

Besides, how could Randi possibly "change the rules if they pass"? He doesn't attend the preliminary tests unless the psychic insists (and they often do). With the agreement of both the psychic and the JREF, preliminary tests are nearly always conducted by third party skeptical groups most local to the psychic.

JREF is apprised of the results only after the fact, and everybody has to sign off on how the test was conducted before the results are even revealed.

You could easily verify this by checking out the testing write-ups that are logged over at the forums. The negotiations and actual tests are all documented and logged. The video of each test is available from the JREF's library.

Quote:

What would James Randi know about being a medium when he is a magician? Both are completely different fields.

Stage magicians are experts in performance deceptions. I'd absolutely want an experienced stage magician to look over any protocol where I suspected fraud might play a role.

And it's not like James Randi can't get technical assistance when he needs it. There are plenty of volunteers who will donate their time and expertise if the JREF needs it.

And in any case, the protocols are designed by the claimant and must be designed so that the results are self-evident. JREF does not accept protocols that require adjudication or interpretation. Where stats are required, they're done beforehand, so the over-unders are clearly understood before the test begins.

Dave, you're parroting talking points. Why don't you simply go to JREF, read the rules, and read the test results? You'll see nothing gets changed.

Quote:

I also remember when James Randi said that there was going to be a big UFO landing and it never happened!

I remember when you said you wanted to run around in public in a pink tutu, yodeling show tunes, while doing pirouettes. You have provided exactly as much evidence for your claim as I have for mine. So where does that leave us?

If you want anybody to take this claim seriously, Dave, you're going to need to provide a when and where so this can be verified. Nobody's going to simply take your word for this.

cosmicdave · #90 (**permalink**) 07-July-2008, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van Rijn

I don't remember the name of it, but there is a common perception issue where one might look straight at something and not recognize it, because you don't expect it to be there. People often also don't remember where they set common objects down last. When one does finally recognize where an item has been placed, it "jumps" into one's perception. That does not mean anything supernatural happened.

I've mentioned this story a few times: Long ago I noticed that if you place a piece of paper on a TV (CRT) screen, it would "stick." I've used this a couple of times: Take a paper someone is looking for (a letter, for instance), place it on the screen, then tell them that the paper is in the room in plain sight.

It's interesting to watch their eyes looking right across the TV and ignoring it. Oh, they'll look on the top of the TV, but flatly ignore the screen itself. I've had to point it out before they noticed.

Ok, here is a good example. Look at a fan that is off, and you can see the blades. Turn the fan on and let it spin. Although the blades are still there you cannot see them because they are spinning at a faster vibration. You know that the blades are there but because they are vibrating or spinning at a higher speed, your eye cannot perceive what it is seeing. Now imagine if you could train your eye to see the blade at the higher vibration. That is how mediumship works.

Anyway, here is the post that took place with a woman I was talking to on the internet last year. My brother walked into the room and started picking up on her. This is EXACTLY how the events happened so I will leave you to make your own mind up. This woman was not on camera, just typing on MSN Messenger.

I have copied and pasted the conversation exactly as it took place below. No information has been added whatsoever to try and make the reading look better, what you read below is exactly as it happened...

*** are my questions

Quote:

***my brother (a medium) is asking if you have something wrong with your left ear area?

Me???

***Yeah lol

yes...why ???

***he was just picking up on it, he does that sometimes

I had to have jaw surgery re done in front of my left ear very close to my ear

***ahh right - he picks up stuff from people, gets their conditions sometimes, weird stuff

not really, few know I did, so I'm amazed

the surgery scar touches my left ear now

***he can pick up all sorts of stuff like chest conditions and things

***its almost spring here now, sun is finally out

Spring is arriving here too...snow is almost totally gone, anything else he can tell about me ???

***he says 'why dont you wear your glasses?'

no rarely, am supposed to though

***lol I know thats what spirit is telling him

why won't I ???, they just aren't a part of me

***hehe, you just need a trendy pair

have one, infact 2 pair

***you have a scar on your nose? near the bridge

yes I do, at the bridge of my nose

accidentally got hit there by a board

***yeah I know

now you tell me, how does he know or why these things about me

***because he is a medium - thats a person like Jonathan Edwards

yes I know what that is but why me ???

***he gets messages about anybody, sometimes he is just talking to somebody or sees a picture and gets a message about them

does he only know about my life that has happened ???

***no, he can pick up on all sorts

what else about me ???

***like your family, where you live, your job, friends - whatever really - all depends what spirit is willing to tell him

***you know somebody called Jackie

I believe my spirit is a good one

yes a cous named Jackie

***also the name Ray

that's my middle name, plus I'm named after a relative Ray

***he is either getting a stephen or stephanie? steven?

I have a cous (cousin) named Steven and best friend daughter named Stephine

***Roger

***and there is some type of anniversary in the month of May

yes I know a couple Roger's

***birthday or death or something, wedding, some sort of event from May

the month of May...a close perosn birthday

***something about a black cat, have you got one?

I just had him put to sleep, yes he was black

***k, quite long furred around his face

he sure was

***are the tiles in your kitchen a sort of white cream colour?

yes

***thats where he sees the cat, by the fridge

his food dishes were by the fridge

***green eyes

awesome green eyes, plus I have green eyes

***what does the number 19 mean?

I got married

***in march? or spring time

divorced 10 years later

March or Spring time yes

***he he, good isnt he

he really is, this is amazing !!!

***he should be on TV

he should be cause he know alot about me and all true

can you ask him a question for me

***k

the name Tom

Lloyd Thomas

***is that tom lloyd thomas?

yes

***a man with a beard - a grandfather figure?

yes

he called me a couple nites ago

***you have a photograph of him sitting on something like a wall or a fence? or there is a photo of him doing that?

yes there is, I took it

***white coloured building and water

white new dam and lots of water...reservoir

***k

***has he got a black and white dog like a collie or similar?

yes he sure does, part wolf

***k, he is married?

he was married to me

***hehe he was just about to say that his wife wasnt very tall

and you know I'm short

***yeah

runt !!!

***he didnt know it was your ex husband though

***have u had your appendix out? or in that region

yes, appendix out and total hysterectomy - no one know this stuff about me

***is it sort of like a C shaped scar? or a J

yes it's called a bikini scar...c shaped

***k, left hand index finger theres a scar just below the knuckle

yes I had a surgery there had trigger finger

***whats trigger finger?

when the finger just flips out and I didn't know when

***k

***what does a red rose mean to you?

that's personal

***k

some bought fo me when I got back from Canada

***your kitchen door sticks - the one that leads outside

yes the sliding glass door does stick and it goes to the outside

***have u got turquise carpet somewhere? or close

yes in the rec room

plus the carpet in my car

***hehe ok

sweets, is all this for real ???

***of course - how else would he know what you have and who you know?

he wouldn't

***somebody has a bird??

me

***something to do with a small child, when you were younger?

like what ???

***he thinks you had a bird when you were younger

I did a Rocky Mountain Bluebird

***is it about the size of a budgie with funny stripes?

very odd stripes

very unique

why do so many of these things happen to me that he can tell

***do you mean bad luck?

not always

***he is picking up a white car with red on it

my pick up

***he says check the wheels are ok

***back left

wow

the back left has no tread

***lol

***get it changed

meaning what ??? I rarely drive it

***meaning you cant drive with a bald tyre, its dangerous

that's why I rarely drive it

***hehe, theres something around the tyre which is red?

***in that area, the cap maybe?

yes the tire has red writing on it

***k

you know none of this is on my space page

***yeah i know

can he tell my future months I'm facing ???

casue I have a major decesion

***its about an operation?

the Drs said to...but I haven't

***what they are saying is dont expect to be up and about immediately - it will be a slow recovery. The operation will be successful but it will take a while for you to get back to normal

yes, they want to put metal rods in my spine

***k

ya know

I'm awe struck !!!

it is an amazing gift

a gift like few

very impressed

***marks out of 10?

what ???

***how many marks out of 10 would you give him? out of 10

I'd give him 10

***so you learnt something today he he

I sure did

***dunno if this means something but he got the message 'big ging says hi'???
ging as in ginger

***and he has an image of ronald mcdonald

***dunno if its a message or the spirits just messing about?

yes both

best friend Ginger was killed in car crash

***he used to lift you up or spin you around or something?

yes he did

***pick you up above his head?

***he just wanted to send you love and be remembered

he could he was lots bigger than me, I will always remember him

***thats nice, thats why he came forward to give you a nice memory

and that touches my heart

*** HUGGING! ***

that person was very special to me

*** You've been HUGGED! ***

***have u got an aunty alice?

Alica

***k

well now I have goose bumps !!!

***something to do with the surname of Roberts?

that's my maiden name

***your kidding

no

***bloody hell

***also the name Marj?, Marjorie?

I medically smoke marijuana

***hehe ok

Margorie is my grand mother

***big lady - flowery dress and handbag

not big big, but flowery dress and handbag

yes big lady, wears flowered moo-moos

moo-moos are dresses here

***k

***getting the name Rory?

he was my neighbor growing up

***ok

***angelina or angelique?

me

Angela but Angel

***have you got butterflies?

where ???

***in the stomach - excited

yah a lot

***hes picking that up

because my future depends on those butterflies

and butterflies have always been a beautiful thing for me

***do you know somebody who was in a motorbike accident? maybe lost a part of their leg?

my Dad, lost almost all his leg

***k, left leg?

yes left leg

***whos Mikey?

my cousins ex husband

***rod or rodney?

my closest relative name is Rodney

and I went with a Rod

***leah or lee ann?

***or similar

LeeAnn...my best friend

***k, something about the swimming pool?

***what happened? something funny?

it was

***a group of you

I got thrown in with all my clothes on at a family dinner

***oh boy lol

***rachel?

***quite tall blonde hair

Rachel was taken from her Mom a drunk

blonde hair

lots taller tham me

***do you know an animal called Skipper?

my chipmunk

***lol, now thats funny

***we used to have one too

well he is skippy !!!

***ok hes gonna give one more piece of evidence then he will shut down otherwise he will be worn out

okay...ready

***roundtree? maybe not to do with you?

yes

in the Redwood forest

***showing the coloured bloke from Shaft for some reason?

from a cave I explored

***k

***anchorage

all of this has been super

Anchorage Alaska my sister lived there

***lol, k

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