Chatroom
 

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum > General Interest > Off-Topic Babbling
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

   

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #31 (permalink)  
Old 26-August-2008, 01:13 AM
Jeff Root Jeff Root is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 6,170
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Root
In the wagon wheel illusion, you identify each spoke in one frame
with a different spoke in the next frame.
Yes, and what, exactly, causes the perception of "frames" in the
wagon wheel illusion when you see it happen in real life?

If eyes refreshed literally instantly, you wouldn't lose track of the
spokes of the wagon wheel, nor would you from a physical rotating
grid like the one the image is emulating. I suspect a physical grid
would preserve a similar effect, if it were rotating in almost-time
with your eyes.
There were at least two threads in General Science discussing this.
I gave what I am satisfied is the correct explanation in one of them.

I have only ever seen actual turning wagon wheels or the illusion
on TV, in which the illusion is caused by the strobing frames of the
TV picture, in exactly the same way that it is produced by strobing
frames of the animations in this thread.

I have seen the effect in "real life" that I think you are talking about
on car hubcaps and a ceiling fan. It is essentially the same as the
wagon wheel illusion, but the strobing is provided by reflections from
shiny parts of the rotating objects. This was made clear by looking
at the slowly-rotating ceiling fan under the right lighting conditions.

If the rotating object is shiny and has repeating shapes around its
circumference, like spokes on a wheel or blades on a fan, light from
one direction, such as direct sunlight or a lamp, can be reflected off
a portion of that shape each time it is in the same position relative
to the light source and your eye. If you, the rotating object, or the
light source are moving linearly relative to the other two, the position
of the rotating part which reflects the light to your eye will change.
That can make the rotation appear to be backward.

I watched a ceiling fan when sunlight was shining on a narrow sidewalk
just outside the windows of the room with the fan. The sunlight was
reflected from the sidewalk through the window onto the underside
of the fan blades. When the blades were in the right position, a line
of sunlight was then reflected to my eyes from the shiny surfaces of
the blades. This appeared as a relatively bright flash. The rest of
the time, the blades were only dimly lit by the ambient light in the
room. As long as I stayed in one position, the light was reflected
from the blades every time they were in the same position. Let's say
it was when the blades passed through the 2-o'clock position. If I
moved over a ways, I would see the flash in the 3-o'clock position.
If I walked past the fan, I would see the position of the reflection
rotate forward or back, just like the wagon wheel illusion.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis
__________________
http://www.FreeMars.org/jeff/

"I find astronomy very interesting, but I wouldn't if I thought we
were just going to sit here and look." -- "Van Rijn"

"The other planets? Well, they just happen to be there, but the
point of rockets is to explore them!" -- Kai Yeves
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old 26-August-2008, 01:18 AM
Robinson's Avatar
Robinson Robinson is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lethologica
Posts: 4,737
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frog march View Post
I wonder if it would work in real life, with a grid on a spinning piece of paper...
If I still had that old turntable ...
__________________
smile, and the Universe smiles with you
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old 26-August-2008, 02:51 AM
Delvo Delvo is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,617
Default

This is different from the wagon wheel or car wheel in that the wheel's motion is actually smoothly continuous, and other factors chop it up into distinct moments at certain intervals, whereas in the animated image, the actual motion is already inherently chopped up into distinct moments at certain intervals, so no other sources of interferences are necessary to explain why it would look that way.

I did make an animation that proceeds 1° at a time, but that turned out to be the easy part. GIMP is mysteriously insisting on a slow frame rate, so I can't get the rotation speed to be as fast as the rotation speeds of prior examples here. And because so much of the image changes in consecutive frames, the file is over 4 MB anyway, and I don't have a website to host it on. So it won't be posted here unless somebody wants me to email it to him/her and is able to increase the frame rate and host it elsewhere.
Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old 26-August-2008, 03:12 AM
Jeff Root Jeff Root is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 6,170
Default

Delvo,

The point is of your first paragraph is not apparent. A strobe mechanism
needs to be present, but it doesn't matter what the mechanism is.

I can see the effect just by looking at two consecutive frames. I don't
need the full-circle animation.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis
__________________
http://www.FreeMars.org/jeff/

"I find astronomy very interesting, but I wouldn't if I thought we
were just going to sit here and look." -- "Van Rijn"

"The other planets? Well, they just happen to be there, but the
point of rockets is to explore them!" -- Kai Yeves
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old 26-September-2008, 06:27 AM
blackbird blackbird is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1
Wink Explained and more

O'Reilly's illusion is explained at http://unitaryflow.blogspot.com/2008...of-center.html:



where you can also find a rotating grid with two centers:

Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old 27-September-2008, 04:34 PM
hhEb09'1's Avatar
hhEb09'1 hhEb09'1 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: NC USA
Posts: 10,758
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbird View Post
where you can also find a rotating grid with two centers:
Cute. He says it is based upon the number 65, which figures in 8 pythagorean triples as the hypotenuse. Actually, it figures in 4, but I can see what he means. However, I think he also uses 652 = 02 + 652, or vice versa
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Space and time an optical illusion? Thomas(believer) Against the Mainstream 36 03-March-2007 07:17 AM
Interesting Optical Illusion sidmel Off-Topic Babbling 22 12-November-2005 12:07 AM
Is cosmos God's trick/optical illusion? Mars_Admirer Space/Astronomy Questions and Answers 17 15-October-2005 05:01 AM
Very impressive optical illusion stuff Rodina Astronomy 1 08-April-2003 05:16 PM
Apollo 11 visor reflection - some kind of optical illusion? Ian R Conspiracy Theories 18 13-August-2002 01:41 AM


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.0.0
©  2006 Bad Astronomy and Universe Today