Chatroom
 

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum > General Interest > Off-Topic Babbling
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

   

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 23-August-2008, 09:32 PM
Lepton Lepton is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Center of the universe
Posts: 793
Default Optical Illusion

This is a single grid rotating but your vision will detect 5-6 independent rotations.

Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 23-August-2008, 10:04 PM
Moose's Avatar
Moose Moose is online now
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Maritimes
Posts: 10,061
Send a message via MSN to Moose
Default

That's pretty neat. If you want to see the full rotation, just blink your eyes repeatedly.
__________________
And you, to whom adversity has dealt the final blow
With smiling [faces] lyin' to ye' everywhere ye' go
Turn to, and put out all your strength of arm and heart and brain
And like the Mary Ellen Carter, rise again.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 24-August-2008, 12:04 AM
TrAI TrAI is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Norway
Posts: 941
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lepton View Post
This is a single grid rotating but your vision will detect 5-6 independent rotations.
...
Hmmm, I am not to good at explaining this kind of stuff, but I'll try: The darker and lighter areas is kind of a moire phenomena, I made an image that I'll append to this post. It consists of three frames combined, and shows the moire effect quite well.

The apparant rotation looks like a temporal aliasing effect, the angular change of the lines becomes higher than the sampling rate of the animation, so you get some areas where there is little difference between each frame, while other parts have more movement. These overlap with the moire effects, and you get the apparently quiet areas framed by more noisy areas, and a reinforcement of the apparent rotation.

Of course, one should expect strange things to happen when one tries to move a rectangular grid in a circular coordinate system that is simulated on a display unit that uses a rectangular coordinate system.
Attached Thumbnails
optical-illusion-dg.gif  
__________________
Game over, you lose, we hope you enjoyed playing the exciting game of Thermodynamics...
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 24-August-2008, 05:41 AM
cjl's Avatar
cjl cjl is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: University of Colorado - Boulder
Posts: 2,631
Default

I would say it's more an artifact of the framerate of the animation than an optical illusion, after looking at it a bit more closely (including individual frames). If you sped up the frame rate or reduced the spin rate, it would look right.
__________________
WANTED:

Schroedinger's Cat

Dead And Alive
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 24-August-2008, 05:50 AM
Frog march's Avatar
Frog march Frog march is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: U.K.
Posts: 4,959
Default

I wonder if it would work in real life, with a grid on a spinning piece of paper...

To me, it seems like the brain is breaking up the image into sections, and processing them separately, and then knitting them back together. The sections are slightly rounded and seem to move about.

I can even control the sections consciously, so some extent, as I can when I watch the swirls that you get on a untuned TV. But that would probably give me a migraine if I did it for too long.

If you just let your mind do its magic, without control, I bet it could actually help get rid of a migraine...
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 24-August-2008, 06:25 AM
cjl's Avatar
cjl cjl is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: University of Colorado - Boulder
Posts: 2,631
Default

I doubt it would work with a physical piece of paper, because as I said, I very strongly suspect that it is a framerate artifact of the animation, rather than an actual optical illusion.
__________________
WANTED:

Schroedinger's Cat

Dead And Alive
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 24-August-2008, 06:28 AM
ravens_cry's Avatar
ravens_cry ravens_cry is online now
Established Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,059
Default

Well, someone get a variable speed moter, some tape and some cardboard and graph paper. That way we don't have to suspect anymore. We will know.
__________________
"The Internet is really, really great..."
Avenue Q

"And a disintegrator beam. People listen when you have a disintegrator beam."
mike alexander
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 24-August-2008, 07:47 AM
Frog march's Avatar
Frog march Frog march is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: U.K.
Posts: 4,959
Default

all you need is some graph paper and an old record player.

I might do it myself.

still then there would be the flickering of the light.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 24-August-2008, 01:43 PM
HenrikOlsen's Avatar
HenrikOlsen HenrikOlsen is online now
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Denmark 55.6773° N 12.3610° E
Posts: 8,592
Send a message via MSN to HenrikOlsen Send a message via Yahoo to HenrikOlsen
Default

It's probably helped by the primitive line drawing as well, anti-aliasing should have been a minimum requirement to lessen artifacts
__________________
‘To those who regard “crime fiction” as some sacred icon which must follow a rigid formula, I will always be the man who writes 18-syllable haiku.’
Andrew Vachss, Autobiographical essay
Trying to make sense of computers, The Error Log.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 24-August-2008, 03:10 PM
nauthiz nauthiz is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,828
Send a message via AIM to nauthiz
Default

At first glance, it looked to me like part of the issue is that the combination of image size, frame rate, and rotation speed is such that the boxes on the periphery are moving by more than their own size between each frame.

I tested it by marking one square on its course through the animation. It's only a bit over 1/2 of the way out from the center, but there are spots where its position in one frame does not overlap with its position in the other frame. It was actually very hard for me to keep track of the square I was marking as I was stepping through the GIF one frame at a time; there was a fair bit of guess-and-check work.

Anyway, marking one box definitely weakened the illusion, and I suspect that decreasing the amount of rotation between frames by about 70% would make it go away entirely.

Unfortunately the filesize is nearly 1MB and there's nowhere I can upload an image that large to share it (nor can I decrease the resolution without 'breaking' it), so y'all will have to trust me on this.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 24-August-2008, 03:21 PM
Lepton Lepton is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Center of the universe
Posts: 793
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nauthiz View Post
Unfortunately the filesize is nearly 1MB and there's nowhere I can upload an image that large to share it (nor can I decrease the resolution without 'breaking' it), so y'all will have to trust me on this.
You can upload it to many of the picture hosting sites such as imageshack and then put it here as an image so we don't have to trust you
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 24-August-2008, 03:47 PM
nauthiz nauthiz is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,828
Send a message via AIM to nauthiz
Default

imageshack it is. . .

Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 24-August-2008, 10:38 PM
alexvorn2 alexvorn2 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 35
Default

and what interesting in this?
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 24-August-2008, 11:23 PM
TrAI TrAI is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Norway
Posts: 941
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frog march View Post
all you need is some graph paper and an old record player.

I might do it myself.

still then there would be the flickering of the light.
Hmmm... As I mentioned earlier, I suspect this may be a temporal aliasing effect, so if you mount a grid on a motor, you may have to use a strobe light to see the effect...
__________________
Game over, you lose, we hope you enjoyed playing the exciting game of Thermodynamics...
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 25-August-2008, 12:32 AM
01101001's Avatar
01101001 01101001 is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 13,362
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrAI View Post
Hmmm... As I mentioned earlier, I suspect this may be a temporal aliasing effect, so if you mount a grid on a motor, you may have to use a strobe light to see the effect...
Yeah. I think rotational motion blur would tell the brain right where the center was and remove the ambiguity. (As would a more-faithful-to-reality animation that realistically portrayed motion blur.)

As for descriptions, like: "This is a single grid rotating but your vision will detect 5-6 independent rotations," I disagree that it is a single grid rotating, for it appears to me a crude animated movie partially simulating similar, one that happens to be actually loaded with ambiguity.

It can be illuminating how a brain resolves such ambiguity, and psychologists spend much time investigating similar effects, but asserting what the response's stimulus "really" is not informative.

I don't think this example is really an illusion, where the typical interpretation is contrary to the facts. This one is just vague.

But, I like vague.
__________________
0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 ...
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 25-August-2008, 12:51 AM
hhEb09'1's Avatar
hhEb09'1 hhEb09'1 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: NC USA
Posts: 10,652
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 01101001 View Post
I don't think this example is really an illusion, where the typical interpretation is contrary to the facts. This one is just vague.
I'm not sure what you mean here. On my new monitor (today) I sense about two or three dozen independenly rotating "cells". If I look closely and follow individual lines, it's clear that there is a single point about which everything else is rotating (I can hold my cursor above it, and it does not move).
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 25-August-2008, 01:12 AM
01101001's Avatar
01101001 01101001 is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 13,362
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhEb09'1 View Post
If I look closely and follow individual lines, it's clear that there is a single point about which everything else is rotating.
I mean the animation is inherently ambiguous. It is not one thing or the other. There's no right and wrong.

OK, I wouldn't but it does look like some classify ambiguous visual stimuli as optical illusions of a sort, but they're not the classic type where appearances are different from reality. The latter are more respectful of the meaning of "illusion".

Edit: The opening description is a bit like saying: This Necker Cube (Wikipedia) was really a cube with the bottom surface visible to the viewer. If you can (also) see a cube where the top surface is visible, you're not seeing what is really there.

__________________
0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 ...
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 25-August-2008, 01:26 AM
nauthiz nauthiz is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,828
Send a message via AIM to nauthiz
Default

If you look closely at other areas, it's clear that there's also a single point that everything is rotating around, albeit not a center point that lies on the intersection of grid lines.

I think much of the ambiguity is because of the frame rate. Squares in the outer portion moving something in the neighborhood of two units per frame according to the "global" interpretation, but at the same time if you're looking at one of the corners it's easier to see a separate rotation centered over there because the brain has an easier time working with an interpretation where each square is moving a little bit between frames than with one where each square is teleporting across a relatively large distance between every frame.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 25-August-2008, 01:37 AM
hhEb09'1's Avatar
hhEb09'1 hhEb09'1 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: NC USA
Posts: 10,652
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 01101001 View Post
I mean the animation is inherently ambiguous. It is not one thing or the other. There's no right and wrong.
I disagree. See below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nauthiz View Post
If you look closely at other areas, it's clear that there's also a single point that everything is rotating around, albeit not a center point that lies on the intersection of grid lines.
I dunno. When I look close, that doesn't seem to be true. Even better, when I pull away from the monitor, the description in the OP (a solid grid rotating about a single central point) seems like the best desciption.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 25-August-2008, 04:24 AM
Delvo Delvo is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,613
Default

If I de-focus my eyes, I get periodic, momentary flashes of four lines, one pair vertical and one pair horizontal, running entirely from edge to edge as in tic-tac-to, but slightly closer to the center than they'd be if they divided the image into even thirds/ninths.
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 25-August-2008, 09:20 AM
Jeff Root Jeff Root is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 6,106
Default

Delvo,

That tic-tac-toe pattern is just a flaw in the individual frames with
horizontal and vertical lines. Those odd lines are two pixels wide.

Old Grapejuice Stain,

The grid certainly is one grid rotating as a whole, but the thing which
causes the illusion is that it jumps between frames, exactly the same
as the backward-rotating wagon wheel illusion. Exactly the same
cause, very similar effect. The reason for the difference of course is
that the grid is rectangular while wagon wheel spokes are radial.

I see quite sharp boundaries between adjacent rotating areas. However,
if I follow along the boundary of one rotating area, I see the boundary in
one place, but if I follow the (same) boundary of the immediately adjacent
rotating area, the boundary isn't necessarily in the same place!

I made a slightly spiffier version. I kept the overal dimensions and grid
spacing, but antialiased the lines and made the steps between frames a
bit smaller. I also reduced the number of frames so that the file is about
40% smaller. The original has 50 frames in 7.2-degree steps; mine has
only 15 frames in 6-degree steps, covering 90 degrees of rotation. The
original is 4 times the size it needed to be.

Rotating grid illusion animation

I haven't noticed so far that the smaller step size reduces the illusion,
though it might.

Edit to add: Uggh. My browser, on my slow computer, adds an "illusion" of
its own. The screen is broken up into sections very much like the illusion
that is supposed to be there. Maybe if I slow the animation down a bit my
browser will be able to keep up. Anyone else have this problem?

I slowed it down a tiny bit but that wasn't enough. I hope I'm the only
one who can't view my animation properly.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis
__________________
http://www.FreeMars.org/jeff/

"I find astronomy very interesting, but I wouldn't if I thought we
were just going to sit here and look." -- "Van Rijn"

"The other planets? Well, they just happen to be there, but the
point of rockets is to explore them!" -- Kai Yeves

Last edited by Jeff Root; 25-August-2008 at 10:02 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 25-August-2008, 09:42 AM
hhEb09'1's Avatar
hhEb09'1 hhEb09'1 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: NC USA
Posts: 10,652
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Root View Post
The grid certainly is one grid rotating as a whole, but the thing which
causes the illusion is that it jumps between frames, exactly the same
as the backward-rotating wagon wheel illusion. Exactly the same
cause, very similar effect. The reason for the difference of course is
that the grid is rectangular while wagon wheel spokes are radial.
Explain that a little further. I'm interested, and don't quite understand it.Cute!
Quote:
404 ... A response you sometimes get,
404 ... As you surf across the Net.
404's a shorthand way to say, "Too bad,
But the stuff you want is not here to be had."

404 ... If your typing's not precise,
404 ... "Try again" is my advice.
If you clicked a link to get here from another place somewhere,
Could you back up and send email to the author over there?
Say, "The page you linked to isn't, any more ... 404!"
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 25-August-2008, 03:33 PM
Moose's Avatar
Moose Moose is online now
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Maritimes
Posts: 10,061
Send a message via MSN to Moose
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhEb09'1 View Post
Explain that a little further. I'm interested, and don't quite understand it.Cute!
I think Jeff means the chemical refresh rate of your cone cells is complicit in the grid rotation illusion. I would expect that as well.
__________________
And you, to whom adversity has dealt the final blow
With smiling [faces] lyin' to ye' everywhere ye' go
Turn to, and put out all your strength of arm and heart and brain
And like the Mary Ellen Carter, rise again.
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 25-August-2008, 04:48 PM
Delvo Delvo is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,613
Default

Both 6° and 7.5° would be rather large increments between frames if the goal were to accurately depict the whole pattern's movement.

For a 400x700 image, the biggest circle which can entirely fit into the image would have a diameter of 400 pixels and thus a circumference of 1256.637 pixels. The distance from center to a corner is the hypotenuse of a 200x350 triangle, which is 403.113 pixels, so the smallest circle enclosing the whole thing (with that diagonal being its radius) would have a circumference of 2532.833 pixels. 6° would be a 60th of either circle, and 7.5° would be a 48th of it.

That means that any feature along the edges of the image must move between 26 and 53 pixels per frame-change if we use 7.5° increments, or between 20 and 43 pixels per frame-change if we use 6° increments. Depending on how you look at it, the little squares are 17 or 18 pixels tall and wide, which gives them diagonals of roughly 24 or 25 pixels, so the distance that each square must move near the edges exceeds the squares' length & width in any case and can be over three times as much at worst, and is barely even slightly under the diagonal length at best and more that twice as much at worst.

It's like trying to watch cars on the highway if they instantaneously teleport forward by two or three car lengths at a time, with other identical-looking cars behind them so that car A always has car B behind it but car B teleports into the space between car A's old and new locations. The discontinuity is bound to make you lose track of which cars are which.

I'm tempted to make a version with 1° or smaller increments between frames which rotates at the same rotational speed, but I suspect it will be too much work...
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 25-August-2008, 05:12 PM
TrAI TrAI is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Norway
Posts: 941
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhEb09'1 View Post
Explain that a little further. I'm interested, and don't quite understand it.Cute!
Well, it is a well known effect, but can be rather longwinded to explain, but the articles for the wagon wheel effect(this is probably similar to the stroboscopic version, the computer screen is redrawn at a certain frequency, the animation is redrawn at some frequency and so on) and temporal aliasing at Wikipedia may help explain the meaning.
__________________
Game over, you lose, we hope you enjoyed playing the exciting game of Thermodynamics...
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 25-August-2008, 08:41 PM
Jeff Root Jeff Root is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 6,106
Default

Old Grapejuice Stain,

Did you try again later? At first I had a typo in the URL so that FreeMars
couldn't find the GIF. A few minutes later I deleted the original file and
replaced it with one having a slightly slower frame rate. It works better
in my animation program and in my image viewer than it does in IE.

Moose,

Chemical refresh rate of the cone cells isn't really involved. It is just as
Delvo explains, the farther the lines are from the center, the farther they
jump between successive frames. So the jump near the center of the
image is only a couple of pixels -- much less than the size of a square --
while the jump near the edge of the image can be twenty or thirty pixels
or more -- larger than the size of a square. In parts of the image where
the jump is about equal to the size of a square, you identify one square
in one frame with a different square in the next frame. In the wagon
wheel illusion, you identify each spoke in one frame with a different spoke
in the next frame.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis
__________________
http://www.FreeMars.org/jeff/

"I find astronomy very interesting, but I wouldn't if I thought we
were just going to sit here and look." -- "Van Rijn"

"The other planets? Well, they just happen to be there, but the
point of rockets is to explore them!" -- Kai Yeves
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 25-August-2008, 09:13 PM
Moose's Avatar
Moose Moose is online now
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Maritimes
Posts: 10,061
Send a message via MSN to Moose
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Root View Post
In the wagon
wheel illusion, you identify each spoke in one frame with a different spoke
in the next frame.
Yes, and what, exactly, causes the perception of "frames" in the wagon wheel illusion when you see it happen in real life?

If eyes refreshed literally instantly, you wouldn't lose track of the spokes of the wagon wheel, nor would you from a physical rotating grid like the one the image is emulating. I suspect a physical grid would preserve a similar effect, if it were rotating in almost-time with your eyes.
__________________
And you, to whom adversity has dealt the final blow
With smiling [faces] lyin' to ye' everywhere ye' go
Turn to, and put out all your strength of arm and heart and brain
And like the Mary Ellen Carter, rise again.
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 25-August-2008, 09:14 PM
NEOWatcher's Avatar
NEOWatcher NEOWatcher is offline
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: the E(e)rie coast
Posts: 9,935
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Both 6° and 7.5° would be rather large increments between frames if the goal were to accurately depict the whole pattern's movement.
...
I'm tempted to make a version with 1° or smaller increments between frames which rotates at the same rotational speed, but I suspect it will be too much work...
I didn't see what the size of the boxes are, but my thinking is that the rotation must be less than that of a half of a box on the outermost edge of the rotation.

Any box that moves to a position in the latter half (an integral number of boxes plus between a half and whole box) will look like it will go backwards.

For instance if we take the hypothetical distances along a radii.
1) 0.19
2) 0.38
3) 0.57
4) 0.76
5) 0.95
6) 1.14
7) 1.33
8) 1.52
boxes at distances of 3 to 5 will appear to move backwards, and then again starting at 8.
__________________
Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 25-August-2008, 10:10 PM
Abbadon_2008's Avatar
Abbadon_2008 Abbadon_2008 is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 471
Default

There should be a 'CAUTION: Viewing The Image Below, Following Mealtime, Can Result in an Involuntary Gastric Purge' sign for this.

I nearly ejected my BLT and cole slaw onto my brand new laptop.
__________________
Angel of the Abyss
-------------
"I am Ripper...Tearer...Slasher...Gouger. I am the Teeth in the Darkness, the Talons in the Night. Mine is Strength...and Lust...and Power! I AM BEOWULF!"
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 25-August-2008, 10:14 PM
Neverfly's Avatar
Neverfly Neverfly is online now
Order of Kilopi
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 13,389
Send a message via Yahoo to Neverfly
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbadon_2008 View Post
There should be a 'CAUTION: Viewing The Image Below, Following Mealtime, Can Result in an Involuntary Gastric Purge' sign for this.

I nearly ejected my BLT and cole slaw onto my brand new laptop.
The world can't think up Warning Labels as fast as folks out there can think up reasons why one should even be necessary...
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Space and time an optical illusion? Thomas(believer) Against the Mainstream 36 03-March-2007 07:17 AM
Interesting Optical Illusion sidmel Off-Topic Babbling 22 12-November-2005 12:07 AM
Is cosmos God's trick/optical illusion? Mars_Admirer Space/Astronomy Questions and Answers 17 15-October-2005 05:01 AM
Very impressive optical illusion stuff Rodina Astronomy 1 08-April-2003 05:16 PM
Apollo 11 visor reflection - some kind of optical illusion? Ian R Conspiracy Theories 18 13-August-2002 01:41 AM


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.0.0
©  2006 Bad Astronomy and Universe Today