Well, he certainly let politics get in the way of good science in TTAPS (the nuclear winter study).

I had mixed feelings about Sagan too: I liked his science popularizations and thought he did an excellent job of communicating a love of the subject, but he used his position as a well-known scientist to push a (in my opinion) dangerous political agenda. The nuclear winter issue was the worst example: Presenting an extremely limited computer model as an argument to effectively disarm was just wrong.

I can't speak to his other science work, but he certainly let scientific objectivity go completely out the window when it came to his political/philosophical/environmental beliefs.

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Ouch! Technical note - I can barely read that font, Superluminal. It was actually easier to quote your message so I could read it in the editor than try to read it directly.

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Just trying something differant, after all it's a thread about Carl Sagan.

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I'm not a scientist, but I play one on the internet.
http://www.rrac.org

Carl Sagan was a genius and a great communicator. I think he had 5 kids.

ASTRONOMY http://jimcolyer.com/papers/entry?id=2

JIM COLYER http://www.jimcolyer.com

5 kids? Jeez, that's a little much. *Always had a problem with people with far too large of families.

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"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right." -- Thomas Paine

Being intelligent is not a felony. But most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor. -- Heinlein

Creationists make it sound as though a "theory" is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. -- Isaac Asimov

I own 12 of his books. he was great.


I didn't/don't agree with him on everything, but as a scientist and a celebrity he did so much for science and scientists.


RIP Carl Sagan.

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Those that lack education have a hard time understanding its value. - Cross

I think his whole point was that we don't know our own power. Shouldn't we be cautious rather than brash? He wanted us to err on the side of caution.

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Those that lack education have a hard time understanding its value. - Cross

To play Devil's Avocado here, I think I understand what they're saying. Basically, he put forth something speculative as "evidence" of what we should not do as far as the Cold War went. In short, he used people's ignorance of science to push that ignorance into making a decision against... well, against nuclear disarmament.

That's my understanding, and I'd agree -- in no case, should a scientist use his reputation to flaunt a faulty idea for a political agenda. It's making the truth flexible; and the truth is not meant to be flexible.

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"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right." -- Thomas Paine

Being intelligent is not a felony. But most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor. -- Heinlein

Creationists make it sound as though a "theory" is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. -- Isaac Asimov

Lonewulf, I can't argue his actions only his motives. Whether you like what he did or not, you at least have to agree that he did what he thought was best.

Politicians are expected to do that. He represented science and scientists... in the name of caution.


I give him props. Like I said, I disagree with him on many issues, but he is still a hero of mine.

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-Cross
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Some of my Astrophotography


Those that lack education have a hard time understanding its value. - Cross

Politicians are expected to bend the truth for their personal motives, yes.

It doesn't mean that all politicians do that, necessarily. It also does not make those actions tolerable or likable.

I can understand the reasons for disliking Sagan's decisions to bend truth in order to carry out something he thought was "for the better". I disagree with the concept. The truth should never be compromised in the name of personal belief.

For instance, if I found out that there was a study that African AMericans do cause more crime, and I didn't want to seem racist, should I ignore that study? Or, alternatively, should I look into why (which would most likely involve economic and societal results, NEVER genetic), and then go about trying to eliminate the problems arose by those studies? Truth should never be compromised. MUCH LESS by a man that is supposed to represent science and scientists - it only proves that scientists would be willing to "botch" the results in the name of politics -- which is the OPPOSITE of what scientists want to be known for!

Anyways, that's all I have to say for tonight. Goodnight.

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"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right." -- Thomas Paine

Being intelligent is not a felony. But most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor. -- Heinlein

Creationists make it sound as though a "theory" is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. -- Isaac Asimov

I don't want to take this too far into politics, but there were two issues:

First, he was strongly advocating a position based on a computer climate model that was a joke compared to climate change/global warming models that still remain controversial. It was not just a thin argument, but painfully thin.

Second, his position was that we should, for all practical purposes, disarm. The cold war was a very high stakes game, and his argument could easily have done more harm than good if it had been more widely accepted. One of the better possibilities is that it might have stretched the cold war substantially.

He later used the same argument in Gulf War I - we shouldn't have kicked Iraq out of Kuwait because Saddam might start a "Gulf Winter." It didn't work out at all like he suggested, and again: Was the tail wagging the dog? Did he make the argument, not because of the painfully thin science, but because he was trying to stop the military action?

There were quite a few other things like that. While I continued to like his popularizations, I grew disenchanted as he preached politics in "science" discussions more and more, and I certainly didn't trust his statements where there was any possibility of politics influencing his argument.

Scientists aren't robots, and I don't expect them to be completely impartial, but in his case, it went way, way too far.

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Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

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If all that is true, then yes, I would agree with the statement that Sagan was a mediocre scientist.

(See? Explaining your position can go a long way, not just saying, "He's a mediocre scientist because I said so")

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"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right." -- Thomas Paine

Being intelligent is not a felony. But most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor. -- Heinlein

Creationists make it sound as though a "theory" is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. -- Isaac Asimov

I explained my position by saying (see above): "there´s no seminal work by Sagan". My definition of mediocre: average; lacking exceptional quality or ability. This is compatible with Sagan´s record on science.

Mind you, I think he used to be superb in other fields, like mass communication. I can still say he was a genius. He could have been a great scientist if he´d wanted to. It´s a pity he´s prematurely gone.

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If you're careful enough, nothing bad or good will ever happen to you.

Yeah, that's exactly how I feel as well.

I loved last nights COSMOS program with him looking at Sternbachs blueprints.
He was a good space advocate.

I never thought he ever talked over anyones head. The way he spoke to the young child in the classroom an episode or two back. "You are part of the Milky Way." spoke to his humanity.

Those children who heard him talk did not know how lucky they were. If I had a time machine, I wouldn't go back to the time of the dinosaurs, nor to what I believe will be a dismal future.

I would make myself a child again, and be a student in that classroom.

wow publiusr, that's a neat thought.


He was/is a hero of mine too. It would have been great to meet him.

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"I will do my best to understand and explain the universe from big to small without invoking miracles, unrepeatable events, or divine intervention. In place of those things I will use observations, mathematics, and science."


-Cross
My travel blog

Some of my Astrophotography


Those that lack education have a hard time understanding its value. - Cross

My HERO

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clear skies

If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe. CARL SAGAN

I will google on it.
I can remember at least two counter ideas he made about Venus.

But I will have to go do my homework and look it up, I suppose.