Don't know where else to put this. It's related to ATM, but only a question. It's not astronomy for Q&A, so I hope this will do. Moderators do what you will.

I've noticed a pattern in the many worst-informed efforts to promote ideas in ATM. It seems to me that one could make a good case for a link between Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder and crackpotism (which I define over-simply here as immovable loyalty to insupportable ideas and theories, especially if they are one's own). I've noticed the pattern before, but it was put in sharp perspective by these lines quoted in a recently closed ATM post:

"But looking at the images from the Hubble it can be seen that all galaxies slant in different directions, which would suggest that some kind of trick of the eye exists. an aspect that astrophysicists seem to have ignored."

...the implication presumably being that they should all be lined up in neat lockstep orientation--and would be if the OP had anything to say about it. There's also a fairly clear evidence of accompanying narcissistic paranoia in statements that suggest (insist!) the best educated minds in the world building on years of slowly accumulated and verified evidence have nonetheless got it all wrong (not that they can't get it wrong, but the chances of any of these "education-be-damned" fellows arriving at the correct answer based on monthly perusal of Discover Magazine fall on pretty short odds).

Comments?

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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately, it kills all its pupils. Hector Berlioz

"To complete the picture all the photons can be seen to be synchronising friction on and off throughout the overall cone which itself is synchronised to the equal and opposite reaction of equilateral triangulation"... by a scientificator in ATM, too priceless to be lost to posterity.

I think it is not a good idea to diagnose based on limited information, especially if you're not a professional in the field (I'm certainly not), and it can easily go well over the board "be nice" rule. There are occasional ATM posters I've wondered about, but I'm not sharing my speculation.

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

I've noticed more that might be schizophrenic, but it wouldn't surprise me to find that some are OCD. However, as said, I Am Not a Psychiatrist, so take my layman's diagnoses for what they're worth.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

It's an example of what happens when people forget Heinlein's axiom: "Staying young requires the unceasing cultivation of the ability to unlearn old falsehoods."

Put simply, when someone sees a disconnect between how they think things should work and how they really work, and they jump to the conclusion that the disconnect is with everyone else, and not themself, it's usually the case where they've forgotten Heinlein's axiom.

On the other hand, history has plenty of examples where the one that breaks from the herd, often to the ridicule of the herd, is actually the one in the know.

Time will indeed tell which is which. In the meantime, we can tell simply by observing whether their propositions are in direct violation of known, tried and true scientific principles.

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If I set the budget, we'd have Ares and more. Unfortunately, I don't set the budget, and Ares is just too expensive and too far out for us to accomplish our goals within the budget we were given.

If we halt the ISS, all versions of Ares, and transport Orion and Altair aboard DIRECTv3's Jupiter family of Shuttle-Derived Launch Vehicles, we just might make it back to the Moon by 2020.

they don't need to be OCD or Schizophrenic to be a crackpot- what ever happened to just plain old "crazy"?

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"blacker than the blackest black... times infinity."- Nathan Explosion
The.. Best.. Thread..Ever...

All points taken. I don't claim to be a professional in the field, and I certainly don't intend to single anyone out in a way that might violate the rules. It was an observation that aroused my interest because so many of the genuine crackpots I've known in the literature (not just here) have so many characteristics in common. It also was not intended to discourage anyone from posting in ATM. Not all ATM posters are crackpots, and the board rules tend to separate the serious posters from the nut fringe by requiring reasoned answers to questions. The people I have in mind are those who post unreasoned (and often incoherent) ramblings, often with the corollary that only they can understand their own ideas. On the other hand, I don't want to discourage those posters either because ATM would not be nearly so much fun without them.

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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately, it kills all its pupils. Hector Berlioz

"To complete the picture all the photons can be seen to be synchronising friction on and off throughout the overall cone which itself is synchronised to the equal and opposite reaction of equilateral triangulation"... by a scientificator in ATM, too priceless to be lost to posterity.

To me it's kind of a "black and white" thing. These folk often think if it's not one, it's got to be the other.

(If I were to guess, I'd think it might be OCD related - something like a desire for things to line up neatly and be label-able.)

A recent example was the "if gravity holds Earths air down, why isn't it all squashed up more" thread in Q&A. The idea that Earths' gravity was strong enough to hold the air close, but not enough to squash down - didn't seem to occur to the poster. (I'm not making accusations about that poster - it's just arecent example of B&W that struck me.)

A particular ATM poster "learns" one thing "black holes suck in light" and then over-applies it to everything "there's a black hole in each Galaxy - why can we see Galaxies?".


The real Universe is complicated. Real things are grey.

Grey is hard to understand.


[
Maybe not so different to the (Moon) HB's.
Similar B&W thinking may help lead to the "stars!" and "Dust on the pads!" type of claims.
]

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Let's forget most of the labels a moment.


And stick with just two basic labels.

Sane
and
Insane.


I am presenting my "opinion" and not anything strictly scientific:

I'll give my own definition:
To be sane means to follow the most rational course using critical thinking.
To be insane is to follow irrational course and defy reality.

A lot of people do not realize how insane they are, in even every day aspects.
We're all evolved to be insane. Insanity has allowed us better chances of survival.
But with our broadening intellect, insanity also became a disadvantage to technological progress and expanding sciences.
However, it remains an advantage when it comes to breeding.

Certainly, my wife was nuts to marry me...

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Exactly

Insanity is a turn on. Admit it.

This is one problem.

This is the other.

Their judgement of probabilities is wrong. It's far more likely that the crowd is correct and you are wrong, than the crowd is wrong and you are right. Unfortunately, because the large pay-off of the latter, people tend to over-estimate the probability of success of the contrarian strategy. For every Einstein, there are a million ATMers who go uncounted, for every Warren Buffet, there are a million traders whose loses never get analysed.

Edit: Seeing as most of us aren't great at estimating probabilities anyway, I would say the ATM behaviour the OP brings up is simply an extreme example of normal human behaviour. A humorous extreme example.

Edit2: should words starting with 'h' be preceded by 'a' or 'an'?

Interesting observation, and on the mark, except I think sometimes that particular sort of reasoning process is more strategy than belief. Evolutionists use it (the postulator defines only a and b as possible. a is made so outlandish as to be unacceptable to "common sense," so the answer must be b), religious fanatics use it.... However, I think strategists do it consciously and maliciously, and represent a whole different sort. I've seen the "black or white" argument used by people I knew (because the bullseyes they were aiming for required precisely specific knowledge) had to know the truth as Truth, and simply found it unpalatable. I guess those people feel validated if they can build a crowd of other non-reasoning believers around them. Hmmm. Maybe not so different at that.

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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately, it kills all its pupils. Hector Berlioz

"To complete the picture all the photons can be seen to be synchronising friction on and off throughout the overall cone which itself is synchronised to the equal and opposite reaction of equilateral triangulation"... by a scientificator in ATM, too priceless to be lost to posterity.

"An" in the King's English; "A" in the President's English. Pick your stripes. I'm a hard-core "A" person myself.

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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately, it kills all its pupils. Hector Berlioz

"To complete the picture all the photons can be seen to be synchronising friction on and off throughout the overall cone which itself is synchronised to the equal and opposite reaction of equilateral triangulation"... by a scientificator in ATM, too priceless to be lost to posterity.

No definition of OCD:

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*

The Queen's English, my good man.

I think I'll go with the President in the case. It 'sounds right' to me. Thanks.

That depends on whether the "h" is silent. "An" is supposed to come before a vowel sound, so I'd write "an hour" but also "a house."

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

In this case, I'd go with "A" since the "h" is not silent (well, not where I speak it, anyway).

Edit:

By the way, I think the rule is the same for American and British English. The variations in usage, I believe, depend on how the word is spoken.

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

That sounds like a good rule. Even I can remember that. Thanks.

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Some people are just not very intelligent and it doesn't require anything further to explain their posts.

Beg pardon. It seems I will never learn not to post when I'm fatigued or in a hurry. Silly mistake. Almost as bad as referring to Neutron decay when I mean Proton.

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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately, it kills all its pupils. Hector Berlioz

"To complete the picture all the photons can be seen to be synchronising friction on and off throughout the overall cone which itself is synchronised to the equal and opposite reaction of equilateral triangulation"... by a scientificator in ATM, too priceless to be lost to posterity.

I didn't offer a definition of OCD. I offered a very loose definition of crackpotism, which may share some characteristics of OCD. OCD can be expressed in a variety of ways, including those in your referenced definition, but certainly not limited to them. One that fits the profile is the obsessive need to impose very precise conditions of order in the form of symmetrical and/or rhythmic physical arrangements in their environments. I was simply wondering whether obsessive attachment to an idea might be included as a potential indicator of other OCD tendencies; a need to impose order on the Universe in their own terms.

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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately, it kills all its pupils. Hector Berlioz

"To complete the picture all the photons can be seen to be synchronising friction on and off throughout the overall cone which itself is synchronised to the equal and opposite reaction of equilateral triangulation"... by a scientificator in ATM, too priceless to be lost to posterity.

I was just kidding. Hardly a mistake at all.

Anyway, not long to go till there is a King...

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True, except in a few culturally defined variants. I prefer "a history" but you'll find it often printed as "an history." In fact, I think I'll be obsessive about keeping the "h" in history.

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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately, it kills all its pupils. Hector Berlioz

"To complete the picture all the photons can be seen to be synchronising friction on and off throughout the overall cone which itself is synchronised to the equal and opposite reaction of equilateral triangulation"... by a scientificator in ATM, too priceless to be lost to posterity.

As one who is helplessly analytical about nearly everything (obsessive? compulsive?), that approach would take nearly all the fun away. But in principle I agree. Yet some seem to be very intelligent but uneducated. Then there are those very few who are intelligent and well-educated. Those are the ones that leave me with questions about sanity. (edit) "those" referring to crackpots, of course. (end edit)

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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately, it kills all its pupils. Hector Berlioz

"To complete the picture all the photons can be seen to be synchronising friction on and off throughout the overall cone which itself is synchronised to the equal and opposite reaction of equilateral triangulation"... by a scientificator in ATM, too priceless to be lost to posterity.

Many misconceptions seem to be based on the idea that the universe should behave like the schematic idealized simplified diagrams that are often used to explain concepts. Like diagrams of the solar system, with nice circular, evenly spaced orbits. The balloon analogy for expansion. Average numbers used to classify things.

It's like some people are unable to extrapolate back 'up' from the simplification to the chaotic real world/universe, with shades of gray instead of hard drawn lines.

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" -- Charles Darwin
"Your right to hold an opinion is not being contested. Your expectation that it be taken seriously is." -- Jason Thompson
Meet the OOONG TOE.

That's actually something I recognised in me, a while ago.

[My wife recently "diagnosed" me as having a slight bit of aspergers, after having read an article in a computing newspaper/magazine about how many people in IT have it. I corrupted that, and call myself an "asparagus". There's a genuine as-diagnosed-by-a-proper psychologist aspergers guy in my office - we like to use that "asparagus" line a lot.]

Anyway, I realised long ago that I don't like change. If a I learn a certain "rule" I like it to stay that way. I do have trouble adapting sometimes.

One BAUT-related example is about how I "learned" in College (14 years old - "Junior High" or something ? in "American") that going faster makes your time slow down. An abbreviated "twins" scenario was in the text book. It was VERY hard for me, later, to internalise that time dilation (in SR) is symetrical.

And don't get me started on the nice little electrons orbiting the Nucleus like a kind of solar-system model.

So anyway, I agree with you Slang, but would add that change may be one of the reasons for the "...some people are unable to extrapolate back 'up' from the simplification...".

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Well, I admit that I'm sometimes not as clear as I could be, but I always try not to be too abstruse.

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Conserve energy. Commute with the Hamiltonian.

Shades of Grey....they haunt us all....

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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately, it kills all its pupils. Hector Berlioz

"To complete the picture all the photons can be seen to be synchronising friction on and off throughout the overall cone which itself is synchronised to the equal and opposite reaction of equilateral triangulation"... by a scientificator in ATM, too priceless to be lost to posterity.

And? Can you smell yourself? I have just had a family member diagnosed with Asperger's. It did not involve a magazine 20 questions test, but a months long process of observations, and many interviews of family members and other close people. So.. the wife may be wrong. On the other hand, I'm in IT as well, and recognize several traits that the family member has.... we're doomed.

I suppose at some level we all have our limits to where we can go from simplification to the actual model or reality. Either because of simple inability, or lack of sufficient knowledge. Or both. Or arrogance. Or.. (the THREE main weapons of the Spanish Inquisition are... )

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" -- Charles Darwin
"Your right to hold an opinion is not being contested. Your expectation that it be taken seriously is." -- Jason Thompson
Meet the OOONG TOE.

It's that grey thing again. Maybe we all have some % of OCD or Asparagus in us?

i.e. some people may be VERY Asparagus - so much so the psychologists can glue that label on them - but maybe that doesn't mean the rest of us have 0% of it.


(P.S. just reminded of another common "B&W Thinking" thing - the common "Hubble ... blue-shift ... Universe expanding ... but why are these two Galaxies colliding?".)

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