I used to be on prescription medication for ADD. It worked well for many years until suddenly one day, I could not focus at all on anything, and I always felt my head was swimming (it's hard to describe, but my mind was totally fried). After I realized the problem was my medication backfiring, I got off it immediately. Unfortunately it took several years to recover, but during that time so many of my skills were completely lost (even though I was able to write fairly good essays before, after this happened I could barely string two words together), and I had to relearn them all from the beginning. I lost everything that made me me. I will never use any kind of "enhancement" drug again, even though for me it was necessary to use it.

Sorry to hear that aquitaine. I have a personal distrust of medicine, and very rarely take anything (there's a few exceptions, but not many).

The one time I was prescribed something was when I injured my knee in the Academy. They gave me an anti-inflamitory pill. I took it once, then decided I'd just work through it naturally. Three months later the drug was pulled due to it causing a handfull of people to have fatal heart problems. Anecdotal, I know... but just more fuel for me "keep your medicine, doc" attitude. *shrug*

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I'm like one of those idiot savants...well, except for the savant part.
"In order to increase awareness of the homeless, security have been given binoculars."

After reading your replies, I have some response.

Fazor: This isn't supposed to be a "legalization" thread. I bring up such "illegal" substances because I , and many others (not just me and my friends Sam5), think that using certain substances as tools for certain functions can be a good thing. Our society has extremely potent taboo's against plant drugs, while you strangely are OK with people using Ritalin and Adderall, which are Amphetamines.

I do not think that the goal of this article is bring forth an era where we all have to take certain drugs to keep functioning. Somewhere in the article (I will look for it after work) I believe it says that any compound that can bring about a beneficial enhancement to thinking and ones life would be optimal over say taking a pill daily to keep your brain going. And it also makes clear that the goal would not be to raise the bar, just to accept that people are doing this and try and work with it in the best way possible instead of denying that people are using said compounds for such purposes.

This whole issue, though, may just be a precursor to future enhancements, such as genetic engineering of humans, as well as bionic upgrades. Something our society is soon going to have to deal with. If we can;t even handle people using chemicals to expand their minds, how are we going to react to people that want to install chips in their heads? Or people enhancing their children? That is the nature of, well, nature. The bar is constantly changing.

I admit I got a little off topic because I think that that certain chemical (psilocybin) IS a mind enhancing drug that I happen to be interested in that should be considered, not just synthetic pharmaceuticals.

I will also tell you that I think optimally using NO drugs to enahnce ones life would be best, but if people choose to do so in a safe manner, no one else should be able to tell them they can't. Its interesting to note that yoga, meditiation, rythmic drumming, etc. can all produce the same states of mind associated with pyschedelics, it just takes a WHOLE LOT more time and effort.

Back to psilocybin for a moment, I wanted to mention that there was a lot of hope for treating mental illness in the late 50's early 60's before all mind altering drugs were lumped together in a frenzy of paranoia and made illegal, much to the dismay of researchers who were then blocked form studying such currently illegal substances. Psychedelics have great potential in the realm of treating depressive disorders due to their ability to bring forth peoples emotions and to get them to open up mentally. If they work in the field of aiding in the treatment of depression, thereby freeing up the mind to work more productively and easily on subjects the person enjoys, instead of being bogged down by that depression, I would consider that a form of cognitive enhancement.

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"In the end the aggressors always destroy themselves, making way for others who know how to cooperate and get along. Life is much less a competitive struggle for survival than a triumph of cooperation and creativity."- Fritjof Capra

www.gonzoscience.com

And that is a valid point, but is your opinion. You wouldn't be forced to take such enhancing drugs.

But what if they could create some that have little/no side effects? Non-habit forming? What if all of your peers were doing it, society was becoming comfortable with it, and no serious problems were arising? Would you change your mind?

Kinf of like laser eye surgery. Some people are unsure of the technology and are choosing to wait until it is more tested and tried before they go under the "knife".

As for effort, much could be said about the internet, and that it is somehow "cheating" to have Google at your fingertips pretty much whereever you go. Do you consider the internet cheating? Sure some old timers may, but to younger generations, it is just there, normal as eyeglasses and artificial hearts. May not resonate with some, but it is the way society is moving.

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"In the end the aggressors always destroy themselves, making way for others who know how to cooperate and get along. Life is much less a competitive struggle for survival than a triumph of cooperation and creativity."- Fritjof Capra

www.gonzoscience.com

Yes I admit, I did derail a bit, but we don't know for sure that the scientists in that article are explicity going to ignore natural mind altering drugs just because there is a taboo around them. I was merely interjecting my opinion that said substances should be included in this debate the article was trying to incite.

And my drummer friend was merely an anecdotal example. Yes, he became good at what he did through study, practice and education, and no drug could substitute that (although a computer chip in your head might). My point was that he has made it expressively known that he credits psychedelic use with helping to some degree to where he is now. And he is working on a graduate degree, not his doctorate. My mistake.

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"In the end the aggressors always destroy themselves, making way for others who know how to cooperate and get along. Life is much less a competitive struggle for survival than a triumph of cooperation and creativity."- Fritjof Capra

www.gonzoscience.com

He credits that. Fine. That is rather anecdotal don't you think?
There is only one of him, and we can't rewind the tape to see the results if he hadn't taken the drugs.
I have seen paintings that were painted under the 'creative' influence of psychoactive drugs. And frankly, they would only be considered creative under modern tastes.

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Yeah, I've heard people credit their deceased grandparent for a win at a sporting event as well ... doesn't mean a spirit actually helped them. *shrug*

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I'm like one of those idiot savants...well, except for the savant part.
"In order to increase awareness of the homeless, security have been given binoculars."

I agree.

Wikipedia article on all the different types of cognitive enhancers

Guess I am "cheating" even more by taking fish oil supplements

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"In the end the aggressors always destroy themselves, making way for others who know how to cooperate and get along. Life is much less a competitive struggle for survival than a triumph of cooperation and creativity."- Fritjof Capra

www.gonzoscience.com

Sam5: maybe this is something that's been discussed before, but in this thread, there seems to be quite a disconnect between what toothdust is saying and what your responses are. Your replies seem to be completely out of proportion. Perhaps you should go back and re-read his posts, particularly before making accusations like:


To the subject at hand...the suggestion that if it were harmless, it wouldn't be illegal, is clearly flat out wrong. There are plenty of things that have been or are illegal due to various cultural factors, not due to any evidence that they cause harm. Mind altering drugs seem particularly prone to this...if it isn't one of the accepted (and yet clearly dangerous) ones like alcohol, it seems to be automatically stigmatized. And as for competition...if you really want to go down that road, you'll need to mandate medication to bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator. We each have a limited amount of time on Earth, and I find the suggestion that it should be illegal for me to be at my peak capacity to make the best of that time because it wouldn't be fair to others to be outrageously offensive.

Toothdust seems to only be saying that a calm and systematic look at these drugs should be made, characterizing the effects of and finding the reasons for the effects of the active substances, and formally evaluating the risks and benefits. My friends only use tobacco and alcohol, both of which I despise, and the strongest thing I myself have used is caffeine and sugar (strong coffee and a cinnamon scone, at the moment), but I can not find reason to disagree with Toothdust.

Perhaps this thread should be moved to Off Topic Babbling, where we can talk more freely about the subject matter.

General Science was the wrong forum to post in.

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"In the end the aggressors always destroy themselves, making way for others who know how to cooperate and get along. Life is much less a competitive struggle for survival than a triumph of cooperation and creativity."- Fritjof Capra

www.gonzoscience.com

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Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
Isaac Asimov

Wow Jim, I didn't know you were the BAUT-genie.

Perhaps millions of dollars should rain down from my ceiling?
*looks around expectantly*

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I'm like one of those idiot savants...well, except for the savant part.
"In order to increase awareness of the homeless, security have been given binoculars."

Thanks Jim.

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"In the end the aggressors always destroy themselves, making way for others who know how to cooperate and get along. Life is much less a competitive struggle for survival than a triumph of cooperation and creativity."- Fritjof Capra

www.gonzoscience.com

Doesn't eating protein help increase mental ability? Should we ban beef?

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"What you think you thought you saw you did not see." Agent J, MiB - Manhatten Bureau

If anyone's interested, Dr. Lester Grinspoon (one of Carl Sagan's best friends) is professor emeritus at Harvard, and has been researching and wrting about marijuana since the 60s.

Marijuana-uses.com

You can read many accounts, even Sagan's (did you know Sagan was a pot head?) about the "enhancement" aspects.



I personally think anything synthetic is bad for us (I don't even use cold medicines etc), while I very much enjoy organics.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

It would be a really strange situation in which the world decided to divide itself up such that anything synthetic was bad and anything organic wasn't! That would be a very unlikely coincidence. (and anyway--we consume more and more synthetics every decade, yet life expectancy is INCREASING).

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Todd (Bowie, MD, US, North America, Earth, Sol System, Vega region, Local Bubble, Orion arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Virgo A Cluster, Virgo supercluster, the universe in which spock is clean shaven)

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

personal page: http://blog.astrosketches.info

Well, that is only my personal preference and I wouldn't suggest dividing the world as such.

In recent years however, I've seen far more harm done by and to those who use synthetics (legal and illegal) than those who do not.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

"Poison Oak is a natural plant...why don't you put some in your food?"---Grace Slick

I never like Airplane or Starship or whatever her band's name was...

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

I'll let them know.

You mean they're still around, chasing the white rabbit?

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

Ask Alice, I think she'll know.

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I'm like one of those idiot savants...well, except for the savant part.
"In order to increase awareness of the homeless, security have been given binoculars."

Perhaps; Carroll was rather "enhanced" when he wrote Through the Looking Glass.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

Actually, Paul Kantner and the current Jefferson Starship just released a truly excellent CD: "Tree of Liberty." Grace guests one one track, I believe.

Have you ever read it? The whole thing is a series of drug references. A caterpillar smoking a hookah? Magic mushrooms? I mean, really now.

An interesting thread. In my line of work, I deal with drug use in the workplace all the time. In my experience, the number one drug of choice that impacts the workplace negatively is alcohol. More employees miss work, have accidents, and have bad interpersonal relationships on the job, due to alcohol abuse, than any other legal or illegal drug. It's cheap, it's easily available, it's powerful, and it's legal.

My department regularly tests employees and applicants for illegal drug use. I would estimate that 90% of the drug test failures that I handle are marijuana users. The other 10% of failures are mostly due to precription drug use without a prescription; mostly pain killers. The hard illegal drugs such as cocaine, heroin, and crystal meth, are washed out very quickly from the body after being taken, so they generally only show up accasionally in tests.

My personal opinion on the matter is that alcohol is a stronger and more dangerous drug than marijuana. Why alcohol is legal and it's use widespread, whlie marijuana is classified with the strongest of the illegal drugs is a mystery to me.

Other than the accasional glass of wine, I try to stay as drug free as possible; but in my opinion, I don't understand why someone wanting to smoke marijuana in the privacy of their own home is any worse than a person drinking at home.

I know Carl Sagan smoked marijuana. I don't think that it affected his work negatively. I do know that he said it helped him to think more creatively about some of the problems he was trying to solve. Perhaps because he was such a strong thinker, it had that effect on him; while affecting the creativity of others to a lesser degree.

I have read in many different places that Francis Crick had the revelation/vision of the double-helix structure of DNA while on LSD. Supposedly it came out in a biography after he died, for he did not want to face the controversy. I can't find a direct source, but have seen it published so many places that if it were untrue people would be getting sued for defamation one would think.

In my experience I think that drugs for the most part enhance what you already are. People who are jerks are usually bigger jerks on alcohol, while myself and others have a few beers and enhance our philosophizing, music, etc.

I myself am an organics man as well. Just because its a plant doesn't make it 100% safe, though most are close to that. The worst I have seen is someone have a mild allergic reaction (we think) from cannabis, but the girl was also drunk. There is a tiny percentage of people that are allergic to it. Who knows.

My friends dad once said to my friend and I when we were about 17: "I would rather see you guys experiment with pot than alcohol, because at least I know you will survive the experience." Strong words indeed.

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"In the end the aggressors always destroy themselves, making way for others who know how to cooperate and get along. Life is much less a competitive struggle for survival than a triumph of cooperation and creativity."- Fritjof Capra

www.gonzoscience.com

I think you two are relying too much on 60's doper mythology for that one.

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‘To those who regard “crime fiction” as some sacred icon which must follow a rigid formula, I will always be the man who writes 18-syllable haiku.’Trying to make sense of computers, The Error Log.

Enough could read that within a few years of printing becoming established in Europe there were fifty million books in existence, which means more books than people.

I think you're drastically underestimating how many could read enough to pay for something once it became cheap enough.

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‘To those who regard “crime fiction” as some sacred icon which must follow a rigid formula, I will always be the man who writes 18-syllable haiku.’Trying to make sense of computers, The Error Log.