Chuck - Even if you can justify it in your own head you are still robbing the satellite company of income for services rendered. If you can't afford it then you can't have it - that's how the economy works. (Or get credit and rack that up)

Despite your claims that no one is hurt - imagine you invent something that can provide you with income but no one is willing to pay you for it... just use it and blatantly tell you that since they can't pay you aren't missing out. They've just stolen from you. Not only in cash but they've stolen your product. That's a double-whammy.

I have some of my own personal music online. But those are songs I want people to hear if they find it. There are a few songs I don't want people to hear *until* they pay for it. If they take that song and don't pay me they've stolen from me twice.

You may think, in your own circular logic, that you aren't stealing. You are.

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---"Why do things have to suck so bad?" a friend once asked me.
"Because space is a vacuum and that's a lot of suck." I replied.
(Actual quote)---

You'd still have to justify why you are allowed to do it and others aren't, because if many would do it, it would be clear some people indeed are wronged by it. So how can you objectively say for yourself that you are justified to do something illegal?

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

It doesn't really matter whether you could or couldn't pay for it. If you're not going to pay for it under any circumstances then the satellite company was not going to get any money from you. If you would have paid for it if necessary then the company would be out some money if you don't.

I didn't say anyone was justified in breaking the law, only that no one was harmed so it's not immoral. Just about anything can be declared to be illegal or immoral, but the government doesn't determine reality.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

You are not paying for a pay service. Therefore someone IS harmed. It is called stealing. You are stealing a service by not paying for it. Your intentions to not pay for it do not justify your action of stealing.

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---"Why do things have to suck so bad?" a friend once asked me.
"Because space is a vacuum and that's a lot of suck." I replied.
(Actual quote)---

They would be stealing from me but I wouldn't be losing anything if they couldn't or wouldn't have paid for it anyway. I can't lose money that I wouldn't have received under any circumstances.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

Yes - you can. If they take your product.

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---"Why do things have to suck so bad?" a friend once asked me.
"Because space is a vacuum and that's a lot of suck." I replied.
(Actual quote)---

No one is allowed to do it. It's just that it's not always harmful to anyone of some people do it.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

So I guess if you get arrested you will use this reasoning as your defence?

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The people who are supposed to have been harmed lose nothing, would not have gained anything, and never know that a crime was committed. I'm not seeing how they were harmed. Their lives would be no different if the satellite thief had not watched their programming.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

If I got arrested then it's no longer true that I've caused no harm. If I were detected and not punished or made to pay then it would be bad for the industry.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

There is an error in your reasoning.

-as long as only a few people do it, no-one is really wronged (your reasoning regarding stealing satellite signal)
-that means that everyone who does it, reduces the remaining number of people being able to do it without wronging the company
-so that means that everyone who does it, is wronging other people who also would have wanted to steal satellite signal

So even if you justify the stealing of satellite signal by some, you'd still be harming people by doing so, because you're taking away from a limited supply.

Stealing is wrong, emergencies aside (real emergencies, that is). You want to steal something? Fine by me. Just be honest to yourself. Getting something illegally for free that you could just as well have gotten legally by paying for it, is stealing.

When I download mp3's illegally, I do it to check whether the album is worth buying. I know that it still is an illegal download, that I'm still stealing from the artist. When I delete mp3's that I don't like or buy the album legally of mp3's I do like, I was still stealing when I downloaded them illegally to try them out. After all, the artist making the album that I didn't like and didn't buy didn't get the money he would have gotten when I'd have bought the bad album legally in the first place. Nasty, but that's the legal rules of music business for you. Don't like it? Go into politics and try to get the rules changed. Now I also downloaded an album that is quite impossible to buy legally, and even then it would be second-hand only. I know that it's still illegal, I know that it's technically still stealing. I'm not calling it anything else. But morally, I don't have problems with that download because there is next to no legal alternative, and the artist already made a load of money on me thanks to the 10 legal albums I do own of him. If he'd confront me about it, I'd be able to justify my actions without having to lie to myself. I wouldn't be able to do that when I was stealing satellite signal. Nor could I with the other mp3 downloads, because the only real reason I did that was because I was a bit lazy and cheapish. Small form of stealing maybe, but still stealing.

Be honest with yourself. Breaking a small law here and there doesn't have to be a death sin, but be honest with yourself. Don't say you're not stealing when you are. Even when at the very very borderline of stealing (like I did with the unachievable album), still keep in mind that legally you're not allowed to do what you did.

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

If the product is a satellite signal then they can't take it. They can intercept only the portion of it that enters their homes and that's lost to me no matter what.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

What moral right do you have to use a service you're not willing to pay for?

I'm not talking about moral justification, but moral right.

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

No, if only people who would not have paid for it anyway are stealing it then the company is not wronged.I don't see whyThe limited supply is reduced by the satellite sending its signal to my residence whether I pay for it or not.Yes, it's stealing, but stealing doesn't always harm someone

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

It's not a moral issue since no one else is affected.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

Yes, Chuck - they are.

If one singer sells a song to ten people, then each person pays 10%. But if one person steals it, instead, either the singer looses 10% of the profits to which they're entitled, or they raise prices to cover the theft losses, which means that the other 9 people pay 11.1% more.

Either way, others are most certainly affected.

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If I set the budget, we'd have Ares and more. Unfortunately, I don't set the budget, and Ares is just too expensive and too far out for us to accomplish our goals within the budget we were given.

If we halt the ISS, all versions of Ares, and transport Orion and Altair aboard DIRECTv3's Jupiter family of Shuttle-Derived Launch Vehicles, we just might make it back to the Moon by 2020.

I give up. If you don't think the service is good enough to be worth its money, don't use it illegally. If you cannot afford the service, tough. Some can afford more than others, welcome to reality. Your argument to call it something else than stealing is false. Somebody is affected. If he would really not be affected, he still wouldn't be affected if everyone did it. But he is.

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

Strange definition of moral issues you have. If you cheat on an exam, nobody is affected according to your standards. So that makes the decision to cheat not a moral issue?

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

I was referring to stealing satellite TV signals.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

Good Lord. "Necessary"? You're actually using the word necessary in regards to satellite television?!

I've missed the last week or so (holidays and a bout of stomach flue - better now, thanks for asking!), but I see I haven't missed much in this thread.

Chuck, you're unreachable - and I, for one, am glad I don't live in a society based on the ethics that have been espoused here.

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SeanF

"Ask to understand, but don't challenge unless you have the knowledge."--NEOWatcher

The contents of this post are ©2009 by SeanF and may not be copied or retransmitted in any form without the express written consent of SeanF

I'm not calling it something other than stealing. He would not be affected if everyone who wasn't going to pay him anyway decided to steal the signal. His income would be exactly the same.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

Someone hiring me based on my exam scores would be affected.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

You seemed to have missed the whole point.It's not a matter of ethics since no one else is affected.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

If everybody you hired would be as smart as his diploma indicates, your company would run better and he'd make more money.

If everybody who was watching your satellite signal would be paying for it, your company would make more money.

The decision that you aren't going to pay for a service means that you aren't going to use the service. If you use the service anyway, you're simply unwilling to pay for it. Which means the company doesn't get the money you should be giving them. Period. You turn the situation around.

You say "the company isn't affected because the result for them is the same when I do this illegal thing or when I do nothing". But the thing you wish not to see is this: "the company IS affected because the result for them is less money when I do this thing illegally than when I do it legally".

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

Someone sure has. "Necessary."

You're not launching those satellites or broadcasting that programming, Chuck, so don't pretend no one else is affected. And that's not necessary for it to be ethics, anyway.

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SeanF

"Ask to understand, but don't challenge unless you have the knowledge."--NEOWatcher

The contents of this post are ©2009 by SeanF and may not be copied or retransmitted in any form without the express written consent of SeanF

Yes, but they're not making any less money if someone who isn't going to pay under any circumstances sees their programming anyway. Some who hires me based on false exam scores is actually getting less than he's paying for.If I'm either going to do it illegally or not at all then it makes no difference to them which I do. If I were going to pay for it but don't then it makes a difference. These are two different cases entirely.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

The satellite launch cost them the same whether I pay them any money or not. It doesn't cost them any more to operate it if I see their programming. They get no less money from me if I don't see their programming. They're not affected by my decision.

__________________
Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

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Ethically speaking, I see 2 options:
-don't use it
-pay for it and use it

Give one ethical reason to do it without paying for it, one good ethical argument that gives you this right.

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

The same right that everyone else has to do as they please as long as they don't harm others.

__________________
Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.