My observation of the constellation Argo Navis makes me wonder if the constellations Carina (the Keel), Puppis (the Poop Deck or Stern) and Vela (the Sails) have been misnamed as a result of observation from northern latitudes. Viewed from the south, Argo Navis appears as a ship with Canopus the prow, the false cross made of stars in Carina and Vela as the keel and hull, and stars in Vela and Puppis forming a mast. On this arrangement, Puppis is the head of the mast and the sails, and Vela forms the deck, mast base and rudder.

This constellation has the name Argo from the myth of the ship that carried Jason and the Argonauts, with Argo another name for the Ark, as in the biblical story of Noah. My speculation is that the star group of Argo was originally named and seen as a ship from southern latitudes (Egypt) but when viewed from more northern locations (Europe), Argo Navis was redesigned in the cosmography without knowledge of the old ship structure. Hence Puppis and Vela, which are anomalous in lacking alpha stars, also seem to be misnamed. Puppis should be the masthead and sails, while Vela should be the deck and rudder.

The constellation Pyxis is also part of this modern misnaming of an ancient star group. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyxis states “Pyxis is a small and faint constellation in the southern sky. Its name is Latin for a mariner's compass. Pyxis was introduced by Nicolas Louis de Lacaille in the eighteenth century. The constellation is located close to those forming the old constellation of Argo Navis (the ship Argo), and in the nineteenth century astronomer John Herschel suggested renaming Pyxis to 'Malus, the mast', but the suggestion was not followed.” It seems to me that Herschel’s suggestion may have been based on similar observations, from his study of the southern skies (wiki).


On the revised model of Argo that I suggest here, the open cluster NGC2516 in Carina, the Southern Beehive Cluster, is located at the figurehead on the prow. I call it the Mermaid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NGC_2516 calls it the Diamond Cluster.

http://cas.org.nz/practicalastronomy...rgazing101.pdf provides good maps and information on Carina. Here are starmaps of Vela and Carina, Puppis, Pyxis and Vela

Robert Tulip

It's an interesting subject for historical study, but I think you should be careful about the wording. "Misnamed" sounds like there is a correct name, whereas in fact the names are arbitrary in any case. The Chinese may have a completely different name, but one cannot say that one is "correct".

You could discuss whether the original Egyptian idea was lost over time due to observation from a different place.

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The order of the constellations is not arbitrary. The old constellations do resemble the pictures that were drawn from them, such as the lion and scorpion. If Argo was also drawn as a ship in the ancient world, I don't think they would have put the stern at Puppis and the sails at Vela. I have not seen ancient drawings though which would prove this question.

The modern drawings of Argo corresponding to the Carina-Puppis-Vela map were made by Europeans who may not have been familiar with the ancient view, so accidentally reversed the direction of the ship.

On the older model, the Clouds of Magellan also form the billowing waves of the sea.

There are stories linking Argo with Noah's Ark and other ancient mythology, indicating etymological connection from Sanskrit. http://www.constellationsofwords.com...ArgoNavis.html states

When you say that the order of the constellations is not arbitrary, are you implying that somebody, say a god or whatever, placed the stars in specific places so that we would see them in a certain way?

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Considering that Egypt is only just south of Europe, and is well into the northern hemisphere, it's hard to believe that latitude had much to do with any reinterpretation.

Could we have a reference for Argo being known to the ancient (pre-Hellenistic) Egyptians, by the way? My book on the history of the constellations says it as far as is known wasn't.

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Argo Navis Reconstruction

This picture shows a possible drawing of the constellation Argo with the parts of the ship marked. This drawing aligns with the old Indian myth that Canopus is the prow of the ship. In the location marked sails on this picture, modern astronomy has placed the constellation Puppis, while on the sections marked deck and rudder astronomy places Vela, the sails. I suspect this interpretation was used by the ancient Egyptians for the barque of Osiris, and that this star map could be found in ancient Egyptian drawings. It would depend on whether the Egyptians also regarded Canopus as the ship's prow. It seems unlikely that Argo was unknown to ancient Egypt as it is prominent in the southern sky there.



Star Names Their Lore and Meaning by Richard Hinckley Allen states "Egyptian story said that it was the ark that bore Isis and Osiris over the Deluge; while the Hindus thought that it performed the same office for their equivalent Isi and Iswara. And their prehistoric tradition made it the ship Argha for their wandering sun, steered by Agastya, the star Canopus. In this Sanskrit argha we perhaps may see our title."

Attached Thumbnails

 

Years ago I wrote a post about Benjamin Gould, the man who broke up Argus.

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Why does this sound like astrology?

Oh...and can you answer Jens question?

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A figurehead on something that is supposed to depict an ancient Greek or Egyptian ship? I'm not an expert on the topic, but I think you need to read up on ancient ships...

Ancient Greeks would probably imagine Argo as something like this with a single row of oars - with a pair of steering oars instead of a central rudder and no topsail.

As for the Egyptian myth, I don't know the details, but arks are usually described as having no means for propulsion (sails, oars, propellers... ) or steering (rudder) - basically, something like a modern barge. After all, its only job is to stay afloat.

Anyway, as constellation figures do, I find this quite a contorted one.

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(As you can guess from the location, English is not my native language.)

My initial reaction was "Why is this in ATM?", but I cannot find a more appropriate place for it in this forum. As I see it, it is not an exercise in astronomical science, but rather a psychovisual exercise in forming mental pictures in the starry sky. I see it as an analogy to seeing patterns in clouds or Rorschach ink blots.

Let us turn the precession clock back a few millenia. Canopus and Beta Carinae would be near the horizon as seen from southern Greece as the midpoint of the ship culminates. These two bright stars could mark the opposite ends of the keel. The portion now known as Carina could be the entire hull, not just the keel. Vela and Puppis would extend to about the same height above the horizon.

Now, which end is which? A lot would depend on what type of ship the beholder is envisioning, in what era. For starters, see this picture by Hevelius. Note that it is mirror reversed, with Canis Major to the left and Crux to the right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ar...s_Hevelius.jpg
See also this view of the Mayflower, about AD1620.
http://www.mayflowerhistory.com/History/mflower5.php
Note the tall, ornate poop deck superstructure, which in the Mayflower is the location of the captain's quarters. It dominates the general appearance of the hull, so I would put it at the brighter Canopus end of the constellation. It is typical of merchant ships in Hevelius' lifetime. In his rendering of Argo it is even more exaggerated, and fits neatly into the modern Puppis. If I am not mistaken, ships in classical Greek times also had tall stern structures.

Now look at a more modern ship, the famous frigate U.S.S. Constitution about 1812, nicknamed "Old Ironsides".
http://www.polkcounty.org/timonier/images/3mast.jpg
The tall poop deck superstructure has been eliminated, and the long bowsprit and jibs shift the visual attention to the forward end of the ship. I would place this at the Canopus end. Now Vela and Puppis would be almost entirely sails.

When the old constellation of Argo Navis was split up into Carina, Vela and Puppis, the Alpha through Omega designations of the bright stars were retained, so none of these modern constellations has a full set.

Thanks Jens. My comment on the order of the constellations was in response to your statement that names are arbitrary, and was intended to indicate that the stories of the stars are based on old myths, hence that modern star group titles can either be in line with the old myths, as is the case for all the northern stars, or out of line, as appears to be the case for Argo. The myth does not imply an entity, merely an interpretation, which can be a study of comparative mythology, etymology and astrotheology.

This claim of the reversal of Argo illustrates how modern science has a disconnect with its ancient roots. I wish to focus on whether Argo could in fact be represented backwards compared to the ancient vision.

Argo sits on the 60th degree of southern latitude. The pyramids of Egypt are at 30 degrees north, and so would be the northernmost point at which the whole constellation of Argo would appear on the southern horizon. From the pyramids, Argo would make a brief appearance to the south each year over winter and spring.

http://www.artship.org/Scenography_Genius_Loci2.html provides several images of the ship of Isis, which I suspect was portrayed in the stars by the constellation of Argo.
eg
http://www.artship.org/Artship07/Pra...t/image038.jpg
http://www.artship.org/Artship07/Pra...t/image040.jpg
http://www.artship.org/Artship07/Pra...t/image042.jpg

The Dendera Zodiac from ancient Egypt pictured here shows a seeming barque of Osiris next to Scorpio and Sagittarius. This drawing looks out of place, and may be included because the ceiling sought to show all important star groups but could not fit Argo in its proper southerly spot.

These Egyptian sources can readily be imagined as pictured in the night sky by the annual appearance of the constellation Argo, as a ship floating down the Nile River from Upper Egypt, re-telling the cyclic myth of the death of Osiris.

The drawing I presented has anachronisms, as it represents my own current interpretation rather than one for which I have a direct ancient source. However, it looks to me to have much stronger similarity to the Egyptian boats than to the modern representations of Argo.

Looking for ancient sources, the role of Argo in various cultures, from India to the Bible to Egypt, can be analysed by observing the links beteen the word forms Argo, Ark and Agastya. The etymology of Argo goes directly to the Indian rishi Agastya. http://www.burlingtonnews.net/leumurian3.html discusses Agastya as follows:

This myth, while embroidered with the fantastic idea of Atlantis, contains several key points which are compatible with the Biblical idea of Noah's Ark and the Egyptian idea of the barque of Osiris, through the identification between Agastya and Canopus. The theme of Canopus drowning at sea - perhaps due to its far southern latitude, invisibility from northern sites and movement from the axis due to precession - can readily be linked to the Biblical story of the flood.

The overcoming of the barrier between south and north India by Agastya has a neat parallel with how Argo has been redrawn by modern northern artists who were not familiar with the southern stars, simply in illustrating the differences in perspective caused by latitude. It is interesting that Canopus was the Pole Star 12,000 years ago, indicating it is now at a more northerly point than ever over the 25765 year period of the earth's precession.

A further question here is that there must be a northern latitude at which Argo is visible in the sky for 40 days. If this latitude is in the Biblical zone it would provide a neat parallel with the story of the Ark and the Flood. The constellation Columba the Dove also fits this interpretation.

Hi Hornblower, thanks. It is more than Rorschach blobs if a redrawing of the constellation aligns to ancient custom. The old festival of the Navigium Isidis on 5 March each year marked the opening of the sailing season through the launch of ships, occurring when Argo was visible in the southern sky from Egypt. Navigium Isidis is also known as Ploiaphesia, and also marks the blessing of boats by the Virgin Mary. The drawings I linked above of the ships for this festival have a strong fit with depiction of Argo with Canopus as the prow, as visible at the time the festival occurs each March. A discussion of the Navigium Isidis festival is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Religi...a/message/9881

Hevelius' drawing places the false cross at the deck and Canopus at the stern. I suspect he may have invented this representation instead of referring to ancient sources.

Thanks Argos, great read. How interesting that Puppis was not named until the eighteenth century! This late date, together with the other southern constellations named in the age of European discovery, supports a prima facie case that the shape of the modern constellation was drawn up differently from how it was widely seen in the ancient world.

you have to remember that just because 2 culture define a set of stars as a constellation representing the same type of object, in this case a boat, does not in any way mean that said constellation is really representing a boat. An more likely explanation is the one of the cultures co-opted the first cultures visual interpretation and adapted it to their own.

seeing pictures and patterns in the stars is no different from seeing a cloud formation that looks like a teddy bear. It is only the time span on which they change that differs.

Yes, true, and of course the pictures take no account of the actual distance of the stars, however it remains anomalous that Argo, unlike the northern stars, appears to have different modern and ancient representations, and that this difference has not been noted or explained. No, in this case it seems the earlier interpretation was forgotten, and the modern culture made up a new picture rather than adapting the earlier one.The time span is a significant difference. The star patterns are very stable over millennia, so matching modern and ancient interpretations is important for understanding how stories about the stars provide a narrative backdrop for human history.

How about the Great Bear, or the Plough, or the Big Dipper, or Charlie's Wagon...?

what has the arbitrary naming of patterns in the stars by ancient cultures got to do with Science?

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Here is my revised speculation, after belatedly looking at the Wiki picture of the Greek galleys.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...ek_Galleys.jpg

With a prominent bowsprit and no conspicuous stern superstructure, these ships visually have more in common with Old Ironsides than with the Mayflower. Given the chosen expanse of sky, I now would render the ship so that Canopus is at the bow and Beta Carinae at the stern. Vela still would be the sails, but the misnamed Puppis would be the soaring bowsprit.

As seen from Egypt or southern Greece in ancient times, this ship would appear to be sailing normally along the southern horizon as the stars go from east to west during the night, rather than backing up as rendered by Hevelius.

In ancient times my vision of the ship would have been on an even keel at culmination. Now, as a result of precession, it appears to be sinking stern first.

As seen from Australia, if I were facing south at upper culmination I would see the ship sailing normally near the zenith, with the masts perhaps extending north of the zenith, depending on latitude. At lower culmination, as the ship skims the horizon, it would be capsized.

My bold for reference. I would replace science in this remark with rendering of mythological artwork. This alleged mis-rendering of the old images is of no scientific or navigational consequence that I can see.

I will strenuously stick with my opinion that this rendering of a ship in the sky is arbitrary. I see nothing in this expanse of the celestial sphere that necessarily would evoke a vision of a ship had I never heard of it. For all we know an ancient tribe in central or southern Africa might have envisioned an elephant or a rhinoceros, with the upper reaches of what is now called Puppis being the trunk or the horn respectively.

These changes are well known, whereas the ancient rendering of Argo seems to have possibly been forgotten, a casualty of the shift of the epicentre of astronomy from Egypt to Europe. The ancient connection between astronomy and culture is of some scientific interest. It is a legitimate scientific question for archaeo-astronomy how perspectives on Argo have changed over the millennia, including as a likely marker of precession of the equinox. The annual appearance of Argo sitting on the southern horizon in Egypt symbolised the annual cycle of the seasons, marking the festival of launching of boats for the new sailing season. The loss of knowledge of this event is symptomatic of the Eurocentric views which came to dominate modern science. Comparing the evolution of mythology and astronomy has potential to provide information about both. The mainstream view is that precession was discovered by the Greek astronomer Hipparchos, reflecting the pervasive mainstream effort to suppress and ignore older astronomical insight. However, there is a strong prima facie argument that Egyptian astronomers were well aware of precession.

Egypt is a perfect location for visual stargazing with wide clear skies. Greek historian Plutarch said Osiris, one of the chief Egyptian Gods, closely identified with the annual cycle of the seasons, was also identified with Canopus, and that the Egyptians saw the constellation Argo as the boat of Osiris. The town of Canopus was the main Egyptian seaport before the founding of Alexandria, indicating the link to seafaring. Herodotus refers to Canopus as an ancient port. The main annual Osiris festival, the launching of his boat on the Nile, was on March 5 in early spring. With Canopus shifting from its earlier position as the southern pole star, the movement of Argo over the centuries at the annual Navigium Isidis festival would have been a perfect marker of precession. Indeed, a precessional marker is imbedded in the myths of Argo in the Greek story of Jason and the Argonauts and the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh, with fifty oarsmen of the Argo in both stories, a number equal to the arc seconds of precession each year.


Thanks very much Hornblower. The plot thickens regarding the direction of Argo. Allen’s Star Names states the ancient Greek writer Aratos in his Phainomaina stated that Argo is travelling in reverse. However, this is not the end of the story. Looking at the planisphere (eg http://nio.astronomy.cz/om/ ), it is apparent that Canopus is invisible from Greece, making Greek interpretations of Argo very dubious. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canopus_(mythology) states “In Greek mythology, Canopus was the pilot of the ship of King Menelaus of Sparta during the Trojan War. According to legend, while visiting the coasts of Egypt, he was bitten by a serpent and died.” How to interpret this Greek myth of the death of Canopus in Egypt? Could it be a garbled recognition that Argo, a major constellation for Egypt, was only partly visible from Greece, and its main star Canopus was not at all visible from Greece, but rose in the south as ships travelled from Europe to Egypt? Aratos goes on to say the “loss of its bow is said to have occurred when Argo pass'd Through Bosporus betwixt the justling rocks” perhaps again an indication that the Greeks could not see the bowstar Canopus which they had named for Menelaus’ pilot from the garbled Egypt story, and that Canopus, the bow, was only visible well south of the Bosphorus. Aratos then says “All Argo stands aloft in sky”, even though this is never the case in Greece.

A further big anomaly between modern and ancient Argo is the star Beta Carinae. At declination -69° 43' 02", this southerly star is never visible from north of about 20° north, the latitude of Mumbai, Mecca and northern Sudan. Hence this invisible bright star would not even have figured in any ancient maps from the Indo-European region, except perhaps those of southern India with their myth of Canopus overcoming the mountain barrier between south and north.

The Egyptians and Babylonians saw Argo as the Ark. Beta Carinae could not have been part of their picture, as it was not known and had no ancient name. Hence the modern maps of Argo, which include this star, can have little connection with ancient representations. As noted above, Argo without Beta Carinae rides snugly as a clearly drawn ship on the southern horizon, as seen from Egypt during the annual festival of launching the ships.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_Carinae states "Beta Carinae (β Car / β Carinae) is the second brightest star in the constellation Carina and one of the brightest stars in the nighttime sky, with apparent magnitude 1.68. It is the brightest star in the south polar asterism known as the Diamond Cross, marking the southwestern end of the asterism. Beta Carinae also has the traditional name Miaplacidus, meaning "placid waters". Beta Carinae's traditional name Miaplacidus made its debut on star maps in 1856 when the star atlas Geography of the Heavens, composed by Elijah Hinsdale Burritt, was published. The meaning and linguistic origin of the name remained an enigma for many decades, until William Higgins, a great scholar and expert on star names, surmised that the name Miaplacidus is apparently a bilingual combination of Arabic مياه miyāh for "waters" and Latin placidus for "placid"."

Of course this name "Miaplacidus" is entirely modern, given that Beta Carinae was utterly unknown to the Latin speakers of ancient Rome.

Perhaps star mappers of that time made their maps after having traveled south a bit?

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Upon plotting the precession back to the era of 2500 to 2000 BC, when the great pyramids of Egypt were built, I found Canopus and Beta Carinae at nearly the same declination, roughly 55^o south. Both would have been visible from Egypt.

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I think the idea that there's a "right" way to draw constellations is pretty ATM.

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Well, no it's not exactly anything to do with 'science' it's a matter of opinion only.

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It is about the history of science, and how the limited information available to both modern and ancient observers constrained their depiction of the skies. It is not that constellation pictures are somehow objectively right or wrong, just that the names refer to a longstanding mythic narrative, partly forgotten, where the southerly stars are much more likely, as evident here, to face discontinuity in their depiction.

Wikipedia has the following map of precession around the South Celestial Pole.
Map of Precession

Canopus (Alpha Carinae) is the brightest star at the top, while Beta Carinae is the bright star to the right of the number +6000. Hence Beta Carinae will be close to the Pole in 4000 years time, and Canopus will be closest to the pole in 12000 years from now. Looking to the point -2000, it forms an isosceles triangle with Canopus and Beta Carinae, confirming Hornblower's statement that they had the same declination in 2000BC. Since then the pole has moved towards Beta Carinae, making it less visible from the north. Canopus forms the head of another isosceles triangle with the points 2000 and -2000, indicating that it has maintained the same declination over this period while Beta Carinae has rapidly sunk from northern view.

It also seems that the Large Magellanic Cloud is at the central point around which our planetary axis wobbles.

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which puts it firmly outside the ATM forum

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Firmly? Of course, there are mainstream and non-mainstream interpretations of the history of science. The mainstream idea that the naming of constellations is arbitrary is based on a somewhat ethnocentric modern approach which discounts the mythic content of stargazing. For the southern skies, it also privileges the recent age of European exploration over ancient stories, even though these stories are imbedded into cultural narratives, for example Noah's Ark. This mythic content, with its changes interpreted against the latitude of the observer, eg India v Egypt v Greece v the high seas, does have a scientific status, but more in the realm of cultural history than astronomy.

To me, this sounds like you are saying that the naming of constellations was not arbitrary.

Prove it.

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