Check this out (also published in this morning's Washington Post): http://www.sphere.com/2009/11/03/70-...ilitary-duty/4

The article in the Post Express stated that 1 in 4 people in the 19-24 year old age group did not have a high school diploma. The Post article went on to list other reasons for disqualification as follows: poor eyesight, overweight (30% of people in age group), asthma, mental health issues, and criminal records.

Now, the articles weren't clear as to whether these data represent the statistics for the entire US population in this age group, or whether they represent the subset of this population that attempts to enlist in the military. I suspect it would be the latter, in which case the Army's data may be skewed towards representing lower-income members of the 19-24 age group. This is still an unsettling finding, however.

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The dose makes the poison--Paracelsus (1493-1541) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus

I don't know. That's why I'm asking--Noclevername

Intelligence may not be clearly defined, but you know stupid when you see it--Noclevername

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge--Carl Sagan (1934-1996)

In 1939 it was the same, but opposite reasons. The depression left so many Americans malnorished the Army had to change their standards with regard to things like the amount of teeth you could be missing and still get in plus a lot of recruits were bounced for being under height and weight regulations.

Nothing new here to folks who know their history.

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In your rush to call everyone "entrenched" or closed-minded or "limited" you fail to note that the "limit" here has a very natural boundary: that point at which the evidence stops. - JayUtah

Science fiction was never meant to be an educational tool. - Editor Amazing Tales

Can't someone who's overweight and wearing eyeglasses still operate a remote control robot tank or aircraft? Why does everyone have to qualify for front line infantry with all of our modern technology that needs to be operated? If they need a high school education then they can finish it in the army. Just make their enlistment term longer. It won't really cost anything more. The cost of the education was going to come from the tax fund anyway and they'll be collecting army pay instead of welfare checks. Anyone who is truly worthless can be discharged at any time.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

Doesn't work that way Chuck. Never has.

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In your rush to call everyone "entrenched" or closed-minded or "limited" you fail to note that the "limit" here has a very natural boundary: that point at which the evidence stops. - JayUtah

Science fiction was never meant to be an educational tool. - Editor Amazing Tales

That was then. This is now.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

No Chuck, now is not any different than then when it comes to fielding armies.

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In your rush to call everyone "entrenched" or closed-minded or "limited" you fail to note that the "limit" here has a very natural boundary: that point at which the evidence stops. - JayUtah

Science fiction was never meant to be an educational tool. - Editor Amazing Tales

What will you do if the location you are operating the tank or airplane is attack by the enemy?
You need to know and be able to defend yourself.

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If it's just us, it seems like an awful waste of space.
Contact Carl Sagan

http://davidsuniverse.wordpress.com/

You fight with what you have, not with what you wish you had. Do you think the military is going to shut down rather than recruit the less effective people? They'll have to adapt.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

I'm more than a little tempted to link to a discussion on another forum between an active duty legionaire and an armchair general such as Chuck on pretty much the same topic. Except the Legionaire isn't all that PC. At all.

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In your rush to call everyone "entrenched" or closed-minded or "limited" you fail to note that the "limit" here has a very natural boundary: that point at which the evidence stops. - JayUtah

Science fiction was never meant to be an educational tool. - Editor Amazing Tales

They will defend themselves, just not as effectively has their superiors would prefer. That's still better than having no one to operate the remote control machines at all.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

Chuck, that's a non sequitur

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In your rush to call everyone "entrenched" or closed-minded or "limited" you fail to note that the "limit" here has a very natural boundary: that point at which the evidence stops. - JayUtah

Science fiction was never meant to be an educational tool. - Editor Amazing Tales

No, they will die. That's what happens when you can't defend yourself effectively.

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In your rush to call everyone "entrenched" or closed-minded or "limited" you fail to note that the "limit" here has a very natural boundary: that point at which the evidence stops. - JayUtah

Science fiction was never meant to be an educational tool. - Editor Amazing Tales

Then those that get attacked will die. Those that don't get attacked can continue to operate their robots.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

There are other things you have to do rather then just remote control planes (never heard of remote control tank). Most of the work is probably physically active so you have to be some kind of shape to do it.
I would like to point out I am one those who are out of shape and with asthma so I probably would of been 4f. But I have done things a lot of people who are in better shape probably wouldn't do.

When I was in grade 8 my homeroom/history teacher was one of the phys. ed teachers. One day he was talking about excuses people tried to get out of the army and one was "asthma" directed to me. I was always trying to get out of phys. ed but I do not think somebody whose bronchi tubes can suddenly close off would be good in the military. When I graduated I friend got excepted into the officer traing program. He had asthma but also was on the high school hockey team. He fainted during a hike in basic and left the program (kind of proves my point).

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If it's just us, it seems like an awful waste of space.
Contact Carl Sagan

http://davidsuniverse.wordpress.com/

If you recruit only from the population you wish you had you won't have a very large army.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

They need not recruit everyone who applies. Most overweight people aren't totally incapacitated. I'm not proposing that someone who can walk a quarter mile be accepted. I don't see that they need to be able to hike 50 miles in order to operate a robot.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

All for sending criminal records to war, also send a few serial killers. There talents will be put to a good use.

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If it's just us, it seems like an awful waste of space.
Contact Carl Sagan

http://davidsuniverse.wordpress.com/

Dave, that's just ignorant.

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In your rush to call everyone "entrenched" or closed-minded or "limited" you fail to note that the "limit" here has a very natural boundary: that point at which the evidence stops. - JayUtah

Science fiction was never meant to be an educational tool. - Editor Amazing Tales

Okay maybe a bit far. But some criminals such as people in gangs or just acting out to get attention would benefit from the military. The serial killer part was ingorant, my apologies.

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If it's just us, it seems like an awful waste of space.
Contact Carl Sagan

http://davidsuniverse.wordpress.com/

Yep, that has been what has happened to some of the recruits brought into Iraq under the loosened rules for recruiting. Newsweek had this article about this one guy who had been recruited into the Army in spite of the fact that he was severely learning-disabled and had a mild case of mental retardation on top of it (he would have been excluded from ilitary service under the old rules).

He lasted ~ 1 week in Iraq before being blown to kingdom come by an IED. Of course, the same thing could have happened to a soldier who was a Harvard graduate. IEDs don't discriminate by IQ and educational background.

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The dose makes the poison--Paracelsus (1493-1541) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus

I don't know. That's why I'm asking--Noclevername

Intelligence may not be clearly defined, but you know stupid when you see it--Noclevername

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge--Carl Sagan (1934-1996)

This country doesn't want stupid soldiers. I don't know if any military ever did. Despite the jokes about cannon fodder, the usefulness of simply playing games of attrition was summed up by this Patton quote (cleaned up): "No [person] ever won a way by dying for his country. He won it, by making the other poor, dumb [person] die for his country."

Yes, the military takes people who are a little overweight, but they do draw the line at some point. I know, I was an overweight Marine recruit. I have a 30-something friend, a geologist, who wants to get into the Army/National Guard but with the promise that he'll get into OCS. It's not just young people trying to get in because of the economy.

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"What you think you thought you saw you did not see." Agent J, MiB - Manhatten Bureau

Chuck, let me tone back a bit.

Who has this robot army of which you speak?

These robots might work well against Bronze age savages, but can you fight the Russians with them? How about the Chinese? Neither party is anything like the Islamicists were are engaged with at the moment.

And only twelve miles is your usual long distance hike nowadays. Personally, I can do 12 miles in two and a half hours, no problem. With 80 pounds of crap on about a little less than twice that. And I'm gonna be 50 in four months.

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In your rush to call everyone "entrenched" or closed-minded or "limited" you fail to note that the "limit" here has a very natural boundary: that point at which the evidence stops. - JayUtah

Science fiction was never meant to be an educational tool. - Editor Amazing Tales

Where that makes a very large difference is when they're interacting with the locals, the guys with the learning disability would be less likely to be able to learn the local customs enough to avoid escalating tense situations.

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‘To those who regard “crime fiction” as some sacred icon which must follow a rigid formula, I will always be the man who writes 18-syllable haiku.’Trying to make sense of computers, The Error Log.

Yeah, but Graham couldn't, either, and they let him in!

I think, though I can't remember where I came across the information, that one of the reasons the military doesn't like recruiting people with criminal backgrounds--apparently excluding my cousin--is that a lot of them are joining to avoid punishment and end up causing more problems while they're in. The military doesn't want to deal with those problems, either, and I don't blame them. It's counterproductive to their purposes.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

I think robot spotter aircraft are already in use and I'm sure I've seen unmanned ground vehicles on the news, although they might not be in general use yet. I don't recall.

I'm not saying that less fit people would be just as good in those positions as fit people. But wouldn't they be better than no one at all?

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

If you recruit only from the population you wish you had you won't have a very large army.

Long gone are the days when we needed millions of people in the military. Some 16 million American men serviced in the military during WWII. That was a different time, with different weapons and different threats. Today, the US active and reserve strength is (IIRC) less than 2 million. Of that total, only a small percentage are what the military calls "trigger pullers."

Today, the emphasis is on quality, not quantity. Some 3 million American teens graduate high school each year. All of the services together try to recruit somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000 each year. Quality, not quantity.

Chuck, you keep harping about robots but UAVs and the like only make up a tiny percentage of the military. The young men and women who enlist today have to be physically fit for a number of reasons even if they're in support jobs. For example, one of the more dangerous jobs in the past several years has been truck driver. They're often exposed to IEDs and must be able to defend themselves at a moment's notice. There's no such thing as a "time out" during a firefight to catch your breath or get ready to fight back.

Back in the 1990s, a former Army Drill Instructor friend of mine told me about what was happening in basic training at the time. He told me of the "stress cards" the trainees were issued during basic. If they felt too "stressed out", they showed the card to the DI and the DI had to let the trainee slide. My friend - who served two tours in Vietnam - was completely disgusted by this. He said in no uncertain terms that those soldiers were not only going to die in large numbers should they see combat, they'd take a lot of others with them. Weak soldiers die and they get their buddies killed. It's as simple as that.

My experience goes back to the early 1970's. It was definitely quantity over quality then. The physical exam went little farther than "inhale". If you were breathing, you were probably going to pass. On the other hand, the unit I was in had about half college graduates, including me. All draftees, of course. When the draft ended we started getting the new class of recruits. Nobody had even graduated from high school. It was pretty bad.

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Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

Is it 75% "of youth" that are 4F or merely 75% of those youth who attempt to enlist in the army that are 4F?

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"Never let the task you are trying to accomplish distract you from the study of computers."

I'm sure they will if they really need to. Don said that during WWII they waived rules because it became necessary. Apparently the 25% that's available is still sufficient at this point.

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As above, so below

Being fairly ignorant about military affairs, I'm not exactly sure what Don meant to say in his response. But I suppose that it's a question of discipline. You don't want people in the military who might not obey orders. I suppose.

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As above, so below