Chatroom
 

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum > General > Questions and Answers
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

   

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 08-April-2006, 06:36 PM
Sphinx Sphinx is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Dublin, California
Posts: 300
Default How does radiation escape from a black hole?

If all matter, including light doesn't leave a black hole then how does the radiation, which leads to its eventual dissipation, escape the event horizen?
__________________
I am forever striving for increased perfection of my understanding of this world we live in. My quest through life is knowledge and I am but a child on this ubiquitous journey, as are we all. Knowledge, like the universe, is infinite.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 08-April-2006, 07:04 PM
Dragon Star's Avatar
Dragon Star Dragon Star is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Lake Mary, FL
Posts: 3,742
Send a message via MSN to Dragon Star
Default

The way I understand it is the radiation is from matter falling inward just outside of the event horizon, the intense gravity and pressure on matter gives off radiation.
__________________
Life is full of choices. Sometimes you make the good ones, and sometimes you have to kill all the witnesses.

Lurker
- "This is baut... we can't decide on the safety of pbj sandwiches in less than 9 pages..."
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 08-April-2006, 07:31 PM
grant hutchison grant hutchison is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,230
Default

I think Sphinx is talking about Hawking radiation, which transports energy from inside the black hole's event horizon, causing it to evaporate.

One version of the explanation for this is to consider virtual particle/antiparticle pairs, which are constantly popping into existence and then annihilating again, throughout what we would think of as empty space. They are "virtual" particles because the energy of their existence is merely borrowed (as they spring into existence) and repaid (as they annihilate), all within a space of time allowed by Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. So their life-span falls below the sensitivity of the Universe's energy book-keeping, because they exist for such a short period of time.
In the vicinity of the black hole's event horizon, however, virtual pairs may become separated by the black hole's gravity: one falls into the hole, the other escapes. They never reannihilate, and so they've become real particles.
Where does the energy come from to allow them to persist? From the black hole's gravitational energy. In effect, the particle that falls into the hole contributes negative energy to it, while the other particle escapes with positive energy. The black hole loses energy to the Universe, and so evaporates.

Grant Hutchison
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 08-April-2006, 08:47 PM
Dragon Star's Avatar
Dragon Star Dragon Star is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Lake Mary, FL
Posts: 3,742
Send a message via MSN to Dragon Star
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grant hutchison
I think Sphinx is talking about Hawking radiation, which transports energy from inside the black hole's event horizon, causing it to evaporate.
I was thinking about something completely different.

Great explanation BTW hutch.
__________________
Life is full of choices. Sometimes you make the good ones, and sometimes you have to kill all the witnesses.

Lurker
- "This is baut... we can't decide on the safety of pbj sandwiches in less than 9 pages..."
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 08-April-2006, 09:00 PM
Sphinx Sphinx is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Dublin, California
Posts: 300
Default

Beautiful explanation which brings up two more questions because my friend, who I just recently met and directed to UniverseToday, was trying to explain this to me and was talking about positive and negative energy but he's a little eccentric and hard to understand sometimes. What is this + and - energy? I wasn't aware that there could be a negative potential to do work.
__________________
I am forever striving for increased perfection of my understanding of this world we live in. My quest through life is knowledge and I am but a child on this ubiquitous journey, as are we all. Knowledge, like the universe, is infinite.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 08-April-2006, 09:20 PM
grant hutchison grant hutchison is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,230
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sphinx
What is this + and - energy? I wasn't aware that there could be a negative potential to do work.
It's a book-keeping thing. By removing energy from the black hole's gravitational field, the particles subtract from its ability to do work in the future by, say, accelerating other objects. By acquiring the particle that falls through its event horizon, the black hole has lost energy equivalent to the particle that departs from its event horizon.

Grant Hutchison
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 08-April-2006, 09:38 PM
grant hutchison grant hutchison is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,230
Default

Another way of following the book-keeping: the black hole has "paid", energetically speaking, for the creation of two particles, but has only "taken delivery" of one. Once you allow for this payment up front, you don't need to apply negative value to one of the particles.

Grant Hutchison
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 09-April-2006, 05:56 PM
Sphinx Sphinx is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Dublin, California
Posts: 300
Default

okay, so it's just like every other scientific term out there and is a description of the action taking place. It's not a "negative potential to do work," it's a subtraction of the overall energy sustained within the blackhole which diminishes the black hole's "potential to do work" a.k.a. energy in it's entirety. Negative energy is the subtraction of energy from something as a result of quantum physics?
__________________
I am forever striving for increased perfection of my understanding of this world we live in. My quest through life is knowledge and I am but a child on this ubiquitous journey, as are we all. Knowledge, like the universe, is infinite.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 09-April-2006, 06:09 PM
Starblade Starblade is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 8
Default

The way I saw it was that there was, for a short time, actual negative energy going in when the particles were separated and unable to collide. Negative energy can exist for a short time under the heisenburg uncertainty principle. Like for squeezed light. Of course no known process is known to separate the negative energy portion of the squeezed light from the positive energy portion.

Of course, then there's this paradox: If there was a highly spinning portion of space, such that when two things entered one right after the other, they would be spun such that they were going practically side by side and moving roughly parallel to one another, what would happen if squeezed light entered?

Something tells me that the answer to this is that a highly spinning portion of space contains real energy, or would break the squeezed state, or something like that. Either that, or maybe it IS possible to separate positive energy from negative energy. :P
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.0.0
©  2006 Bad Astronomy and Universe Today