Creationism / Adventism / Education / Question to the forum

[joseraeiro]

Hi,

I'm new around and this is my first post...I not sure if I should be posting this under "Astronomy", but I will anyway.

I'm a freelance astronomy educator from Porto, Portugal.

Recently, a teacher, the pedagogical director of a Brazilian adventist groups of private schools (they teach up to 9th grade in dozens of schools), asked for one of my astronomy talks (she didn't knew I live at Portugal, which stands at the other end of the Atlantic Ocean relative to Brazil).

Although it wouldn't be economically viable to deliver the talks, I gladly offered my help to guide them through resources and answer any questions they would possibly have about astronomy or about teaching astronomy.

Here in Portugal there are many schools that are religious based, but teach the official curricula, with science being the same science taught in public schools.

But, now I know, this group of Brazilian Schools teaches creationism.

So, what do would you BAUT users do?

a) Speak to the Brazilian teacher, and explain to her they're completely wrong about creationism, and explain to her the truth?

b) Help her get the astronomical facts right, help her get the science right, help the kids with good astronomical and scientific explanations of reality and how things work.

In case a) probably she will get offended and stop replying, but I won't be helping adjective deleted by moderator liars.

In case b) maybe the kids someday, if they get interested in science and astronomy by learning how things really work, maybe, then just maybe, they'll start asking themselves questions about reality more often, in a scientific manner. Maybe it's possible to plant a seed for the future.

Remember one thing: almost all kids are probably there because their parents want to, and so aren't going anywhere, and will be abused by their misinformation.

What do you think?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,

José Raeiro
www.raeiro.com

[antoniseb]

I moved this to Q&A, though moving it to Off-Topic Babbling was another option. You are asking for ethical advice about the education of astronomy & science in a religious environment.

I respect the fact that you have a tough choice to make, and hope that you can get some sound advice here.

My inclination would be to teach observation and observed facts. Any derived ideas should be prefaced with "It appears that..." and not address how it conflicts with creationism. Allow the creationist teachers to tell the students anything they think is the right thing to say afterward, since you don't really know the precise dogma of creationism, and could express it badly.

[George]

I voted for helping, simply because it always sounds better when we are electing to help vs. not help.

Unfortunately, without knowing a great deal of the circumstances, I really can't give you a good answer to your question. One can argue science much easier than religion.

[Cougar]

Originally Posted by joseraeiro

But, now I know, this group of Brazilian Schools teaches creationism.

What "brand" of creationism? If they teach that the Earth and "the heavens" were "created" 5,000 years ago, you might point out that there will be many conflicts with observational astronomy, which studies objects whose light has been traveling for billions of years. This would also conflict with known physics, such as radiometric dating.

It may be helpful, though, to note that the current cosmological model - the so-called big bang - is not a theory of the origin of the universe, but rather a theory that describes and explains how the universe evolved after it began. The creationists have just as much evidence as to how it began as science does... that is, none. [They probably won't like that word "evolve." But in the case of the evolution of the universe, since monkeys aren't involved, they may not have that big a problem with it. ]

[Tim Thompson]

Originally Posted by joseraeiro

b) Help her get the astronomical facts right, help her get the science right, help the kids with good astronomical and scientific explanations of reality and how things work.

I finally voted for option (b), although I think that some combination of both options is what you are likely to wind up doing. You need to provide valid & trustworthy information at all times, and you need to be willing to point out the places where we know a lot, and where we don't know a lot. Too many anti-creationists get themselves in trouble by over emphasizing scientific knowledge, creating an illusion that scientists know it all. The clever creationist will show where scientists do not know the answer and reply with a double attack that (a) scientists are hiding something, and (b) the creationist has an answer where scientists do not, so the creationist must be right. Don't get fooled that way.

At the worst, the teacher will object to the real info and will stop communicating. Since you are an ocean away, there really is not much you can do about that. But as long as the tone of the conversation remains civil, I think you are in OK shape. I think that acting as a constant & consistent source of good information is really all you can do from such a distance.

[Gillianren]

I think it'd be nice if the kids got some accurate science. Maybe you could start by teaching how science works?

[Fazor]

I think it'd be nice if the kids got some accurate science. Maybe you could start by teaching how science works? :applaud: I know I said it in the OTB thread about homework yesterday...twice actually...but yes! Understanding how science works...the basic principles of observation, causality, and critical thinking are the building blocks. Even if you don't learn anything more "scientific", with that knowledge you can begin to learn things on your own.

(technically what I said in the other thread were that problem solving and critical thinking are the two most important aspects of education...which is really the same thing I'm trying to say here)

[Ken G]

(b) sounds good, you seem to have a good grasp of what's at stake. And I agree with antoniseb that the observations are what the students need to know-- let them draw their own conclusions. If they think you have your own agenda, they'll judge you as badly as we are judging them for their own agenda.

[redshifter]

I agree with Gillian, start by explaning how science works, how we know what we know through the scientific method. Show what science is and what it is not.

[George]

Yes, if you can get them to the scientific method and how it works, you would be doing great.

Perhaps a quick historical perspective of how we got there might help your transition into this sensitive area of scientific prowess. Since the UN has declared 2009 to be the Year of Astronomy (400 years since Galileo’s initial telescopic discoveries), Galileo might be a good start. He was a very popular and respected Christian among Cardinals and a couple of Popes (before and after his "trial"), and he is regarded as the founder of modern science since he packaged experimental work with math to obtain both predictability and testability. The scholarly Jesuits were quick to reject Ptolemy's system once they themselves verified Galileo's observations. Thus, religious leaders are open to change. [The Jesuits chose Tycho's model, which was clumsy but just as accurate as the Copernican heliocentric model, and it allowed Geocentricity. Copernicus too was active with the Church. I believe he was made a canon twice (for two regions or towns).]

[Noclevername]

Originally Posted by joseraeiro

a) Speak to the Brazilian teacher, and explain to her they're completely wrong about creationism, and explain to her the truth?

Definitely not. Bible=literal creationists think that what they teach is the Word of God. They'd likely be extremely offended, and it wouldn't sway their minds in the slightest.

b) Help her get the astronomical facts right, help her get the science right, help the kids with good astronomical and scientific explanations of reality and how things work.

Yes. Teaching good scientific principles such as critical thinking, relying on evidence to determine facts, and the testing and re-testing of experiments and observations to make sure the evidence is what you think it is, will likely help some of these kids to analyze the facts for themselves. Make sure to point out that these methods apply not just to astronomy, but to all sciences.

[Supercharged]

"B" here as well, although either way it seems like a lose-lose situation to me....

If you tell people outright that they are wrong about Creationism, in most cases they will get extremely defensive and offended.

On the other hand, if you just stick to the facts of good, hard scientific information, you also might incur the wrath of parents who get angry when you teach little Johnny or Suzy anything that goes against Creationsim. Remember, some people are so entrenched in their beliefs that even scientific facts will never change their minds. In your mind, you might think you are being a good teacher by presenting facts, but in reality some people aren't interested in facts.... they just want you to tell their kids what they want them to hear.

My biggest problem with the whole darn thing is this.... if God is all-powerful and all-knowing, and created the universe, then why the heck would this super-sentient being allow humans to study something called "science", which eventually leads to facts which deny his existence based on Creationism???? Doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

[man on the moon]

By far and away answer B.

Answer A will only force the person you are talking with to retreat more defensively into their beliefs, helping no one. Unless done carefully and conscientiescly (sp?) this approach will NEVER work. Or at best, RARELY.

That said, you mentioned it is an Adventist school. The Adventist church is very big on education, so encouraging the teacher to want good science for the kids should be no battle at all. I understand "good" is a relative term that you may disagree with her on, but I think you'll be surprised how receptive she is to ideas contrary to her beliefs. She may reject them on faith, but accept them on science. If you were to draw a line at the level of amateur scientist (let's say either Master's in the US or serious hobbyist/reader) most Adventists will be unique in that they can hold a disagreeing dichotomy of understandings reasonably well. More in a moment, so hold the thought.

If the only topic she is asking you about is astronomy, there should be little to no issue. At least in the USA most Adventists I've spoken with have an undecided or old view of the Universe. Earth-and more specifically life-is the only part that is strongly defended as young. I don't know the nature of things in Brazil, however. Even then, if they are 9th grade or less they shouldn't be getting into the age of the Universe on more than a passing mention.

Ask her for a copy of the curriculum guideline and work off that.

Going back, most Adventists I know are fairly open minded, at least to the extent of holding two contrasting ideas both in their minds with little issue. In the USA I've met a number who can discuss evolution, and sometimes even use it to organize information about the world (taxonomy, geology, etc) and simultaneously reject the issues about time and descendency. It is quite a feat, but I've met several who have this ability. There are limits of course, a deeper understanding of sciences makes this difficult and one must choose. At least through high school (and college if there is not too much science) I've met a number who have this remarkable ability. Whether or not I agree isn't too relevant, it gives them a stable model on which to build an understanding of the world and that is the most important thing to me.

But I digress. To many Adventists the age of the universe is not a big issue, it's the age of life on earth. Ask the teacher to be sure, but I'll put money that she'll say either "I'm not sure" or "It can be old, only life is/must be young". The fact that she's asking you suggests she's more liberally tended and willing to work with what science says. The "pushy" creationists that make the news give a lot of others a bad name. "Pushy/evil" demand that science is wrong and they must be right. Because they have a vocal voice, they are heard. There are many, however, that acknowledge science and its apparent validity, but reject it on the basis of faith. These have little issue with evolution in schools (and many support it), realizing their world view is something to be taught at home by the parents/church rather than a school. Unfortunately these folks are not nearly as vocal (or are drowned out) and only come out when the issue comes to head.

I would be willing to bet your teacher is the second sort (the not pushy sort). If she were the "evil" part of creationism that makes the news all too often, she would be asking a Brazilian creationist society for information on rejecting you. Instead she is asking you for help. Don't try to convert her, help her trust you. Help her trust science. It's not your job to change her--just give her the information, not your conclusion.

Don't push the age issue on the kids, push the science and how we reach the age "conclusion" IF that is something she wants/needs. Otherwise there is a ton of other cool science stuff that is astronomy related having little direct relation to age. Get the kids interested in good science about things they can grasp, things they won't get "in trouble for" at home, and the rest will follow in time. They may go for a young earth now, but if you put out good science unrelated to age now, the age issue has a much better chance of falling into place later. Push it now before they can grasp it, and you turn them off for a long time to come.

I should write a book, I deleted several paragraphs about the psychology of YEC because they were irrelevant to the topic at hand. This is a big and complex issue, and it won't be solved simply by telling the kids that they and/or their teachers are wrong, or that their God is wrong. It won't be solved by hammering just the parts of science that "prove" you right. It can be done, and the biggest help will be from the handful that "convert" based simply on the science. If you can interest the kids in the world, and a few "fall out" as a result, the next generation of court battles will be that much better because you will have a group of people who understand both sides incredibly well as they have lived both. Choose option A in your poll and you'll lose these few. Most votes chose B for various reasons and I agree.

Anyway, I think I should finish. This is long enough already and probably overkills the question. PM me if you want more.

And no, I wouldn't call myself Adventist though I have a number of friends who are and a lot of unrelated contact with the church as a whole. Great people, though a lot of theological/world view nuances that can make deeper discussion frustrating until you understand what those little things are (it goes beyond the first bit of Genesis, like a braided rope through the Bible. Without understanding the braids it can lead to some seemingly odd views/thoughts/conclusions). None of that should come into play here other than what I've mentioned though. If it does, back up and ask her to clarify. Hope this helps.
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[man on the moon]

On second thought, if you do the option B and it goes well, you might ask her gently "can I help you/offer you information for A..." but don't expect her to necessarily pass it all verbatim to the kids. She may be curious, but uninformed. Be considerate about it and if she says "no" then let it go, but it would be on a personal level for her rather than a larger level for all the kids. She may take it to them later, but I doubt she would just turn over all her curriculum for something she doesn't fully understand--she may study it on the side though. Additionally, involving yourself in this would be at best a long process--not only does it involve teaching the science (relatively easy) it also involves dismantling an entire theology and way of life (quite difficult, especially if you don't understand the theology to begin with).

That is how I "left" the YEC-ness, I studied it on the side. I primarily teach 5th and 6th grade science, so "age" only comes up in passing. Studying on the side though led me to a lot of information and eventually to an (I think) better conclusion.

Cheers, I'll pray for her and think for you

[Louigi Verona]

b) seems lke a good choice - you will give mere facts and avoid any discussions which might be dangerous to the dialogue.

[iantresman]

Originally Posted by joseraeiro

a) Speak to the Brazilian teacher, and explain to her they're completely wrong about creationism, and explain to her the truth?

b) Help her get the astronomical facts right, help her get the science right, help the kids with good astronomical and scientific explanations of reality and how things work.

Telling someone they are wrong, is not teaching them anything. It's presenting an opinion, which may well be based on good reasoning and evidence.

There should be nothing wrong in teaching anybody about creationism, as long as the reasons are given, and it is put into context. Likewise scientific explanations. If they are both taught well, people will draw their own conclusions, for their own reason.

You also have to remember that science can not scientifically demonstrate that creationism is wrong, as the latter is based on partly on faith. However, while I've never personally experienced anything to make me reconsider my lack of faith in creationism, I can't scientifically prove that someone else hasn't. Undoubtedly there are many others, who corroborate each other, who say that they have.

And don't forget that good science and astronomical facts don't prove a theory.

[George]

Originally Posted by iantresman

Telling someone they are wrong, is not teaching them anything. It's presenting an opinion, which may well be based on good reasoning and evidence.

Good point.

You also have to remember that science can not scientifically demonstrate that creationism is wrong, as the latter is based on partly on faith.

How high must one fly to see a round Earth? At some point, reason becomes part of the understanding of the truth before us, or at least the untruth. It is a matter of reasonableness, or degree. Science can demonstrate certain creationist claims as being unsound, if not invalid. It is still a matter of opinion but objective evidence should not be casually dismissed in forming one's opinion. Some creationists reject evidence by claiming their faith trumps it. [Lest we forget, most believers in a Creator, however, do not.]

And don't forget that good science and astronomical facts don't prove a theory.

The problem is the uninformed think science must prove a theory, and therefore claim it to be weaker than it really is.