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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 12-May-2008, 05:37 PM
tommac tommac is offline
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Default Vector as a tensor.

Sorry if this is a stupid question but I am a little confused and would like to clear something up. It has been a while since I was formally educated.

A scalar is a tensor rank of 0.
A vector is a tensor rank 0f 1. This can be represented as a one dimensional array. That is the part I am confused about...

Why is it represented as a one dimensional array?
Lets take force for example:
Does the one dimensional array mean that for all directions there is a net force in that directions? Or why is it a one dimensional array?
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Old 12-May-2008, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommac View Post
Why is [a vector] represented as a one dimensional array?
A vector, has a starting point in n-dimensional space and an ending point. It can be mapped so that the starting point is at the origin and the ending point is (p1, p2, p3, ... pn).

Voila. A one-dimensional array.

Wikipedia: Vector (spatial)

Quote:
Representation of a vector
[...]
In three dimensional Euclidean space (or R3), vectors are identified with triples of numbers corresponding to the Cartesian coordinates of the endpoint (a,b,c). These numbers are often arranged into a column vector or row vector, particularly when dealing with matrices [...]
(Note there the use of "column vector". The relationship of vectors to one-dimensional arrays is so pervasive that a one-dimensional array is often called a "vector".)
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Old 12-May-2008, 06:10 PM
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For comparison, a 2-dimensional array would be a matrix, that is something like this:
a11 a12 ... a1n
a21 a22 ... a2n
...
am1 am2 ... amn

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Old 12-May-2008, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 01101001 View Post
A vector, has a starting point in n-dimensional space and an ending point. It can be mapped so that the starting point is at the origin and the ending point is (p1, p2, p3, ... pn).

Voila. A one-dimensional array.

Wikipedia: Vector (spatial)
Oh .. OK ... so ending point meaning

starting point + the vector = end point?

Sorry still dont get it. Why so many end points? One for each dimension?
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Old 12-May-2008, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommac View Post
Why so many end points?
It's an ordered collection of n Cartesian coordinate values indicating a single point in n-space.

Like (5, 20, -10) indicates a single point in 3-space.
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Old 12-May-2008, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommac View Post
Oh .. OK ... so ending point meaning

starting point + the vector = end point?

Sorry still dont get it. Why so many end points? One for each dimension?
The end point establishes a one-dimensional length. Thus, this single line segment offers both direction and length. The length represents the magnitude of whatever it is you wish to represent, e.g. force. This math method is often superior to other math methods.
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Old 12-May-2008, 07:41 PM
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We gotta be careful here about mixing up the terminology. This tensor wiki page points out that a tensor of rank 3 might have different dimensions
Quote:
For example, a rank 3 tensor might have dimensions 2, 5, and 7. Here, the indices range from «1, 1, 1» through «2, 5, 7»; thus the tensor would have one value at «1, 1, 1», another at «1, 1, 2», and so on for a total of 70 values.
In that terminology, a vector would have rank 1, but n dimensions. Saying "a vector is a one-dimensional array" is the same thing as saying "a tensor (vector) has rank 1". I can see the possibility for confusion.
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Old 12-May-2008, 07:54 PM
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Default Tensor example

I'm afraid I'm also mixing up vectors , matrices and tensors
I've been looking for a while for good and easy to understand examples of tensors . In fact till now I've always done my work using matrices .
Someone can provide an example or a link ?
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Old 12-May-2008, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankuitaalst View Post
Someone can provide an example or a link ?
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Originally Posted by hhEb09'1 View Post
I knew that was going to happen--my message was too short!
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Old 12-May-2008, 08:19 PM
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Default Tensor example

Thanks for the link to wikipedia !
Reading this I realised I have been using tensors without even knowing ...
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Old 12-May-2008, 08:33 PM
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I am reading this now:
http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/Nu...2002211716.pdf

it is pretty good

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankuitaalst View Post
I'm afraid I'm also mixing up vectors , matrices and tensors
I've been looking for a while for good and easy to understand examples of tensors . In fact till now I've always done my work using matrices .
Someone can provide an example or a link ?
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Old 13-May-2008, 04:03 AM
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Didn't there used to be a poster named "Tensor"?

Whappen to him/her?

Pete

Uhhh.. nvrmnd...he just posted like 5 minutes ago :blush
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Old 13-May-2008, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter eldergill View Post
Didn't there used to be a poster named "Tensor"?

Whappen to him/her?

Pete

Uhhh.. nvrmnd...he just posted like 5 minutes ago :blush
Yeah, I'm still here. At the time I joined, I was deep in the self study of GR. Since GR, absolutely depends on tensors, that was the name I took for the board. I haven't been quite as active, but that is due to health concerns, more than anything else. I was going to post a smart alec comment in this thread, but kinda let it go.
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Old 13-May-2008, 01:34 PM
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Hmm. If you want to be very math-pedantic - vectors and tensors are described or parameterized with n-D arrays of scalar values, but they're actually mathematical objects in their own right. Given different frames, sets of basis vectors, or changing frames and basis vectors, there are sets of transforms that you use to get from one to the other.

Depending on what frame you are in, d/dt {velocity vector} isn't always {dvx/dt,dvy/dt,dvz/dt} like you would expect for a pure array.
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Old 13-May-2008, 01:46 PM
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Depending on what frame you are in, d/dt {velocity vector} isn't always {dvx/dt,dvy/dt,dvz/dt} like you would expect for a pure array.
I'm not sure what to expect there, what does dvx/dt mean, in that context?
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Old 13-May-2008, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhEb09'1 View Post
I'm not sure what to expect there, what does dvx/dt mean, in that context?

acceleration in the x direction ?
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Old 13-May-2008, 02:59 PM
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acceleration in the x direction ?
Maybe. I could see that, but why would we expect it to be the "velocity vector"?
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Old 13-May-2008, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankuitaalst View Post
Thanks for the link to wikipedia !
Reading this I realised I have been using tensors without even knowing ...
I am also quite familiar with matrices, but that wiki link didn't exactly allow me to transform my understanding of matrices into some understanding of tensors. Isn't there some simplification here, assuming a background in matrix (and abstract) algebra?
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Old 13-May-2008, 03:07 PM
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try the link I posted above. It is a 20 page doc of easy reading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cougar View Post
I am also quite familiar with matrices, but that wiki link didn't exactly allow me to transform my understanding of matrices into some understanding of tensors. Isn't there some simplification here, assuming a background in matrix (and abstract) algebra?
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Old 13-May-2008, 05:33 PM
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Vector: both magnitude (340 mph) and direction (240 deg, horizontal)

Tensor: varying (linear, geometric, ln, or other various functions) throughout a 3 dimentional space. One example would be the varying bending moment along a beam with a load equally distributed along the length of the beam when said beam is anchored on one end only. The moment = 0 at the free end and is at a maximum at the anchored end. The moment varies linearly along the beam in this simplest of cases.
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Old 13-May-2008, 05:56 PM
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I dont think it is limited to 3 dimensional space right?

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Originally Posted by mugaliens View Post
Vector: both magnitude (340 mph) and direction (240 deg, horizontal)

Tensor: varying (linear, geometric, ln, or other various functions) throughout a 3 dimentional space. One example would be the varying bending moment along a beam with a load equally distributed along the length of the beam when said beam is anchored on one end only. The moment = 0 at the free end and is at a maximum at the anchored end. The moment varies linearly along the beam in this simplest of cases.