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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 07-July-2008, 09:22 PM
alainprice alainprice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhd40 View Post
from mugaliensī post:
All particles must obey E2 = p2c2 + m2c4

isnīt that: Eē= mēvēcē+mēc4

Then again from mugaliensī post:
For a photon, we declare 0 rest mass

ergo: Eē=0 ???

And as I said somewhere else: whatīs the meaning of "rest mass"? Whatīs the meaning of "relativistic mass"? Thereīs no rest mass, and no relativistic mass, thereīs only mass, invariant, independent of the frame of reference
And yes, for a photon E=h*f
But why do we need any mass-considerations concerning photons?
That's actually from my post. I messed up the quotation though.

You assume that particles with momentum must have rest mass.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 07-July-2008, 09:39 PM
korjik korjik is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhd40 View Post
from mugaliensī post:
All particles must obey E2 = p2c2 + m2c4

isnīt that: Eē= mēvēcē+mēc4

Then again from mugaliensī post:
For a photon, we declare 0 rest mass

ergo: Eē=0 ???

And as I said somewhere else: whatīs the meaning of "rest mass"? Whatīs the meaning of "relativistic mass"? Thereīs no rest mass, and no relativistic mass, thereīs only mass, invariant, independent of the frame of reference
And yes, for a photon E=h*f
But why do we need any mass-considerations concerning photons?
momentum does not equal mass times velocity is all cases. Substituting p=mv in the energy equation is incorrect.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 07-July-2008, 10:54 PM
alainprice alainprice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhd40 View Post
from mugaliensī post:
All particles must obey E2 = p2c2 + m2c4

isnīt that: Eē= mēvēcē+mēc4

Then again from mugaliensī post:
For a photon, we declare 0 rest mass

ergo: Eē=0 ???

And as I said somewhere else: whatīs the meaning of "rest mass"? Whatīs the meaning of "relativistic mass"? Thereīs no rest mass, and no relativistic mass, thereīs only mass, invariant, independent of the frame of reference
And yes, for a photon E=h*f
But why do we need any mass-considerations concerning photons?

p.s. if X = AB, then X^2 is not equal to A^2*B^2.
X^2 = (AB)^2

This is a classic mistake. It's like saying the sqrt(A+B) = sqrt(A) + sqrt(B)
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 08-July-2008, 03:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alainprice View Post
p.s. if X = AB, then X^2 is not equal to A^2*B^2.
X^2 = (AB)^2

This is a classic mistake. It's like saying the sqrt(A+B) = sqrt(A) + sqrt(B)


x=ab then
x^2 = (A*B)^2
= (A*B)*(A*B)
= A*A*B*B
= (A*A)*(B*B)
= (A^2)*(B^2)

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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 08-July-2008, 06:07 AM
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(
As compared to:
x = a + b
x2 = (a + b)2
= (a + b).(a + b)
= a2 + ab + ba + b2
= a2 + 2ab + b2
)
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 08-July-2008, 01:29 PM
alainprice alainprice is offline
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Oops! You're both right.

As a substitution, p^2=m^2v^2 does work

I was thinking more along the line of pzkpfw's post.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 08-July-2008, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alainprice View Post
That's actually from my post.
sorry !
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 08-July-2008, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alainprice View Post
You assume that particles with momentum must have rest mass.
Whatīs the physical definition of "particle"?
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 08-July-2008, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by korjik View Post
momentum does not equal mass times velocity is all cases. Substituting p=mv in the energy equation is incorrect.
If we talk about "particles": whatīs momentum, if not "mass times velocity"?
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 08-July-2008, 05:08 PM
alainprice alainprice is offline
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_physics

See section title Subatomic Particles, which goes on to say that the word 'particle' is a misnomer.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 08-July-2008, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alainprice View Post
p.s. if X = AB, then X^2 is not equal to A^2*B^2.
X^2 = (AB)^2
Thatīs really new math to me. Which specific math segment are you thinking of?

Quote:
This is a classic mistake. It's like saying the sqrt(A+B) = sqrt(A) + sqrt(B)
OMG! I can prove you wrong: A=0, B=0 -> sqrt(0+0)=sqrt(0)+sqrt(0)
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 08-July-2008, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alainprice View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_physics

See section title Subatomic Particles, which goes on to say that the word 'particle' is a misnomer.
From your wikipedia-link: Strictly speaking, the term particle is a misnomer because the dynamics of particle physics are governed by quantum mechanics. As such, they exhibit wave-particle duality, displaying particle-like behavior under certain experimental conditions and wave-like behavior in others

I donīt see any definition of "particle" there
Iīm still thinking of "particle = having mass" (as one of several properties). For me, a photon is not a particle, although it may "display particle-like behavior"
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 08-July-2008, 06:17 PM
alainprice alainprice is offline
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If a photon is not a particle, what is it?

By definition, the light quanta is the photon. A packet, one thing. A particle.

I have no problem considering many things as particles. A graviton is a particle. Does it have mass? The higgs Boson is a particle, and we say the Higgs mechanism is what gives other particles mass.

Mass is not a pre-req.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 08-July-2008, 08:54 PM
korjik korjik is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhd40 View Post
If we talk about "particles": whatīs momentum, if not "mass times velocity"?
technically?

p^2=E^2/c^2+m^2c^4

The case if the photon is the classic example. The photon has 0 rest mass but it does carry momentum. If you measure the momentum of a photon, then you come up with

p=E/c

This may seem like a circular argument, but remember that the photon momentum is measured. It is a known value, and to the limits of observation, the second term in the full momentum equation must be zero, leading to a zero rest mass.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 08-July-2008, 09:13 PM
alainprice alainprice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by korjik View Post
technically?

p^2=E^2/c^2+m^2c^4

The case if the photon is the classic example. The photon has 0 rest mass but it does carry momentum. If you measure the momentum of a photon, then you come up with

p=E/c

This may seem like a circular argument, but remember that the photon momentum is measured. It is a known value, and to the limits of observation, the second term in the full momentum equation must be zero, leading to a zero rest mass.
I came up with

p^2 = E^2/c^2 - m^2c^2

edit: can momentum be imaginary?
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 09-July-2008, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhd40 View Post
If we talk about "particles": whatīs momentum, if not "mass times velocity"?
Do me a huge favor. Please explain why an electron's spin angular momentum is twice as effective at creating magnetic fields as its orbital angular momentum.

We can imagine the electron as having momentum from its orbital velocity and spin, but this is not a correct picture for the electron(a single particle).

Both particle and momentum are misnomers. So, we might want to look at momentum's meaning before giving the definition of particle a hard time.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 09-July-2008, 02:49 AM
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relativistic momentum: p=mv/sqrt(1-(v^2/c^2))

however photon mass is zero, and its velocity is c. So both numerator and denominator approach 0. To find the photon momentum, simply use the relationship discussed earlier in this thread.

and no, momentum is not imaginary. There is such a law called the conservation of momentum - using this we can build solar sails, etc.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 09-July-2008, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alainprice View Post
If a photon is not a particle, what is it?

By definition, the light quanta is the photon. A packet, one thing. A particle.
I still donīt know the definition of "particle". Is there any?

Quote:
Mass is not a pre-req.
Thatīs interesting. Any literature about this?
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 09-July-2008, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by korjik View Post
technically?

p^2=E^2/c^2+m^2c^4

The case if the photon is the classic example. The photon has 0 rest mass but it does carry momentum. If you measure the momentum of a photon, then you come up with

p=E/c

This may seem like a circular argument, but remember that the photon momentum is measured. It is a known value, and to the limits of observation, the second term in the full momentum equation must be zero, leading to a zero rest mass.
I have not the slightest problem with this. 100% agreed for photons. But what about particles with (rest) mass?
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 09-July-2008, 02:12 PM
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Do me a huge favor. Please explain why an electron's spin angular momentum is twice as effective at creating magnetic fields as its orbital angular momentum. (snip)
No idea. Does Eē= pēcē+mēc4 include spin angular momenta(momentums?)?
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