I feel we should push for this Terra Preta Soils CO2 sequestration strategy and only go for weather modification if we fall over any of the serious tipping points.

The economics look good, and truly great if we had CO2 cap & trade in place:


There are processes that you can have your Bio-fuel and fertility too.

'Terra Preta' soils I feel has great possibilities to revolutionize sustainable agriculture into a major CO2 sequestration strategy.
I thought, I first read about these soils in " Botany of Desire " or "Guns,Germs,&Steel" but I could not find reference to them. I finely found the reference in "1491", but I did not realize their potential .

Current issue of Nature article: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...l/442620a.html



Here's the Cornell page for an over view:
http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/l...ochar_home.htm


This Science Forum thread on thes soil contains further links:
http://forums.hypography.com/earth-science.html


The Georgia Inst. of Technology page:
http://www.energy.gatech.edu/presentations/dday.pdf

There is an ecology going on in these soils that is not completely understood, and if replicated and applied at scale would have multiple benefits for farmers and environmentalist.

Terra Preta creates a terrestrial carbon reef at a microscopic level. These nanoscale structures provide safe haven to the microbes and fungus that facilitate fertile soil creation, while sequestering carbon for many hundred if not thousands of years. The combination of these two forms of sequestration would also increase the growth rate and natural sequestration effort of growing plants.


I've sent this thread to the researchers at M-Roots, who make Mycorisal fungus inoculations for acceleration of the reestablishment of the symbiotic fungal / root relationship. Here's the M-Roots site: http://www.rootsinc.com/

I also sent it to Dr. Jared Diamond, if he replies, I will probably have an orgasm!

Here is a great article that high lights this pyrolysis process , ( http://www.eprida.com/hydro/ ) which could use existing infrastructure to provide Charcoal sustainable Agriculture , Syn-Fuels, and a variation of this process would also work as well for H2 , Charcoal-Fertilizer, while sequestering CO2 from Coal fired plants to build soils at large scales , be sure to read the "See an initial analysis NEW" link of this technology to clean up Coal fired power plants.

Soil erosion, energy scarcity, excess greenhouse gas all answered through regenerative carbon management
http://www.newfarm.org/columns/resea...charcoal.shtml


If pre Columbian Indians could produce these soils up to 6 feet deep over 20% of the Amazon basin it seems that our energy and agricultural industries could also product them at scale.

Harnessing the work of this vast number of microbes and fungi changes the whole equation of EROEI for food and Bio fuels. I see this as the only sustainable agricultural strategy if we no longer have cheap fossil fuels for fertilizer.

I would like to investigate if use of an M-Roots type fungus inoculant and local compost would speed this super community of wee beasties in populating into their proper Soil horizon Carbon Condos.


I feel Terra Preta soil technology is the greatest of Ironies since Tobacco.
That is: an invention of pre-Columbian American culture, destroyed by western disease, may well be the savior of industrial western society. As inversely Tobacco, over time has gotten back at same society by killing more of us than the entire pre-Columbian population.

Erich



Erich J. Knight

Sounds like Compost

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Yes, but super compost , allowing compost microbes and an untold menagerie of other bugs, fungi etc., to survive in deeper soil horizons.

Compost will sequester CO2 for months , charcoal will for 1000 years or more.

Its compost with an attitude.

__________________
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In the future nations will be able to say, "We soiled ourselves," with pride.

To get this started we need a tax on dumping carbon into the air and we need to pay people for removing carbon from the atmosphere. This way a farmer would have an incentive to change her soil management practices so it would become carbon negative. These payments need to be set up so people in rich countries can pay people in poor countries to be carbon negative. The carbon tax does not need to be extremely high to have benificial effects. $25 tax for each ton of carbon released and $25 payment for trapping a ton of carbon for 100+ years would have significant effects on CO2 emissions.

BillyT , who is from Brazil, has vociferously contradicted the carbon negative aspects of Terra preta soil technology.

sciforums.com - Name your favourite BioFuel Technology
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread....84#post1152384

I have replied with quotes from the research I have seen, and am forming up a rebuttal to his latest reply:


Billy T
is at DarkVisitor.com (3,261 posts) Yesterday, 07:40 PM
report | reply
To Erich_knight
Thanks for links. I have now looked at http://www.energy.gatech.edu/presentations/dday.pdf

Its 54 pages are mainly two parts: bio fuel & & terra preta.

The bio-fuels section is OK, but is mainly hopes and dreams and ignores alcohol which is real, economic, and enviromentally friendly.

On terra preta section:

Page 45 gives the relative carbon release by many fuels, showing all, even solar photovotatics, make some release (and they are correct when producing them and set up in field is included) and only terra preta as carbon negative. For reasons I detailed, in earlier post they are not entirely honest here. Yes, terra preta stores for reasonably long times (less than C02 injection into aquifer or raising clams etc as I mentioned in prior post) but each pass thru the char plant sends less than half of the carbon input into char for terra preta. Thus, if instead of using methane producing land dump to process 200 tons of bio-waste and by avoiding oil use, removes and /or store more than 200 tons in about one year, the char plant will put more than 100 tons of CO2 into the air for every 100 tons it stores, and part of that dumped into the air may be posionous CO initially. Their terra preat enthusasm is causing dishonesty.

Probably the same reason they failed to even include alcohol (of any type) in their page 45 chart -it is better, cheaper and much quicker than char at least as world converts and stores carbon in growing cane and alcohol storage tanks. After 1000 years or so, char can store more carbon than cane and alcohol.

You have quick and strong enthusiasm for many new technology but IMHO are not critical enough in your examination of them. Let me respectively suggest that you compare the results of processing 100 tons of wood chips and old news paper by two different processes. (methane land fill plant vs. Terra preta production and storage plant) in terms of how much (include oil displacement) the CO2 in air is changed by both and which removes more carbon form the carbon cycle for 100 years. I think you will find that the terra preta plant does not reduce oil consumption (adds slightly to it) and removes less than 50 tons of carbon from the carbon cycle and is not economically feasible without tax payer support. I.e. loses on all counts compared to the methane producing land fill.

Later by edit: I have visited the other two links now - not much new or different from first and I again not the almost activie ingnoring of ethanol and methane land fill alternatives. Also I know little about it, but is it not possible that Brazil's terra preta is natural, not man made? Obvious nature can make coincentrated carbon deposits (we call hem coal). Obviously vegitation in some areas, like Brazil, grows so fast and dies that it burries earlier half rotten vegitation. etc. Fact that some brokne potteryis found in it etc is not proof that it ws intentional made made soild addative. Perhaps tribal man's only role was to agee to sue one location as the dump. Back then it would not have old TV, tires, bottles and batteries, just vegitation and some pottery chards. The vegitation would generate heat (have you ever opened a big compost pile?) and with inadequate oxygen be largely reduced to carbon and oils (call that char) I like this natural carbon deposit theory alternative as I know peat is good for making scotch

Last edited by Billy T : Yesterday at 10:05 PM.

"Begetting a virtuous cycle" , I particularly like these quotes in this
14 Aug article:

Published on 14 Aug 2006 by WorldChanging. Archived on 14 Aug 2006.
Terra Preta: black is the new green by David Zaks and Chad Monfreda


This piece was originally published on Worldchanging.com, "the world's
leading sustainability blog."


http://www.energybulletin.net/19281.html


"Claims for biochar's capacity to capture carbon sound almost
audacious. Johannes Lehmann, soil scientist and author of Amazonian
Dark Earths: Origin, Properties, Management, believes that a strategy
combining biochar with biofuels could ultimately offset 9.5 billion
tons of carbon per year-an amount equal to the total current fossil
fuel emissions! "


And:


"Terra preta's full beauty appears in this closed loop. Unlike
traditional sequestration rates that follow diminishing marginal
returns-aquifers fill up, forests mature-practices based on terra preta
see increasing returns. Terra preta doubles or even triples crop
yields. More growth means more terra preta, begetting a virtuous cycle.
While a global rollout of terra preta is still a ways away, it heralds
yet another transformation of waste into resources. "




This is an interesting "FLash Carbonization" process:
http://www.hnei.hawaii.edu/bio.r3.asp#flashcarb


And the home page:


http://www.hnei.hawaii.edu/biocarbon.asp


Biocarbons (charcoal)
Consider the following riddle:


I am renewable;
I am a chemical element;
as a fuel I am often less expensive ($/GJ) than natural gas;
my energy density (GJ/m3) can exceed that of ethanol or LPG;
and my combustion does not add to the CO2 in the atmosphere;
I am easily stored and safe to transport;
I clean the water you drink and the air you breathe;
Plants grow best in soils that are enriched with me;
I am a key ingredient in the production of semiconductors;
When eaten I settle an upset stomach and clean the intestines; and
No one is afraid of me!
What am I?


(if you don't know, please find the answer at the bottom of this page).


The Table below lists the current prices of conventional fossil fuels
and their renewable alternatives. Observe that at its current price,
without any tax incentives or other government subsidies, charcoal is
cost-competitive with alternative fossil fuels. In fact, charcoal is
the only renewable fuel that is now cost competitive with fossil fuels.
Remarkably, at its current price (equal to oil at about $7/GJ) the
production of charcoal is very profitable. This fact is well-known to
charcoal producers, but not to the general public.


FUEL PRICES Fossil Renewable
Coal See note 1 Charcoal $3-8/GJ
Oil $3-11/GJ Ethanol $14/GJ
Natural gas $2-12/GJ Hydrogen $18-24/GJ


Note 1: because of its high content of mercury, sulfur, and other
noxious elements and compounds, the price of coal is not comparable to
the other (relatively clean) fuels listed. To be comparable, the price
of coal should include the necessary cleanup of these noxious materials
(especially mercury) at the outlet of the powerplant. Unfortunately,
reliable data on the cleanup costs are not easily available.


In addition to the fact that charcoal is cost-competitive with fossil
fuels, the markets for charcoal are more diverse (and potentially
larger) than those open to any other fuel. What other fuel enjoys
markets as a potting soil, health food, water purifier, soil amendment,
air purifier, metallurgical reductant, and cooking fuel?


Furthermore, landfills in the State of Hawaii are overburdened. The
Table below illustrates the amount of charcoal ("black gold") that can
be manufactured annually by the Flash Carbonization™ process from
each county's waste stream. Note that the current wholesale price of
charcoal ($246 per ton) imported to the USA is equivalent to oil at
$46/bbl on an energy basis. The production of "black gold" from
Hawaii's green wastes could become a $50 million per year (or more)
business for a visionary entrepreneur.


For these reasons, biocarbons (i.e., charcoals) are an important
element of HNEI's overall R&D programs. The ancient technology of
charcoal manufacture has seen dramatic recent improvements in HNEI's
Renewable Resources Research Laboratory (R3Lab). Work continues on
optimizing reaction conditions for using the Flash Carbonization™
process with biomass. UH Flash Carbonization™ process patents are
being actively licensed. Research efforts are also continuing on
biocarbon fuel cell concepts.

(Answer to riddle: charcoal!)




Erich J. Knight

We can all do with richer soil
http://soils.usda.gov/technical/class/

In another forum a poster characterized me as a chief preacher in the Terra Preta Church.

I shall take on this mantel, and here is my first sermon:

The Terra Preta Prayer

Our Carbon who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name
By kingdom come, thy will be done, IN the Earth to make it Heaven.
It will give us each day our daily bread and forgive us our atmospheric trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against the Kyoto protocols
And lead us not into fossil fuel temptation, but diliver us from it's evil
low as we walk through the valley of the shadow of Global Warming,
I will feel no evil, your Bio-fuels and fertile microbes will comfort me,
For thine is the fungal kingdom,
and the microbe power,
and the Sequestration Glory,
For ever and ever (well at least 2000 years)
AMEN

Erich J. Knight

Great thread Erich , very constructive !

I've sent Dr Antal, ( "FLash Carbonization" process: http://www.hnei.hawaii.edu/bio.r3.asp#flashcarb ) the Terra preta links and asked if he has considered these Amazon Dark Soils (ADS), Here's Dr. Antal reply:


"Dear Mr. Knight: over the past seven years my colleagues and I have written at least six proposals to initiate scientific studies of terra preta here at UH. None were funded. I suggest that you carry your message to your congressional representatives. Terra preta will not be developed if we continue to follow a business as usual appraoch. Best wishes, Michael.

Michael J. Antal, Jr.
Coral Industries Distinguished Professor of Renewable Energy Resources
Hawaii Natural Energy Institute
School of Ocean and Earth Science and Technology (SOEST)
1680 East-West Rd., POST 109
University of Hawaii at Manoa
Honolulu, HI 96822"




Also:
Dr. Steven Hodges of Virginia Tech sent this reply:


"Erich:
I attended some of the sessions at the World Congress of Soil Science on Terra Preta and had perused Dr. Lehmann's page at Cornell early last spring. We do have ongoing work on both biomass production for biorenewable fuels and the use of pyrolysis here at Va Tech (biological systems engineering). Our nutrient management specialist, Dr. Rory Maguire will be working with them to explore the use of the "by-product" char as their production models increase in scale to the point that we have enough product to work with.
While overall this looks like something that could help us from an energy standpoint, in the "Soil" scheme of things, there are some down sides of pyrolysis/char utilization. Significant amount of N are lost from the biomass, resulting in a very low N content in the char. When applied to soil, this can upset carbon to nitrogen balance to the point that microbial populations are shocked, and crop yields are significantly reduced if not carefully managed. In addition, the fine ash needs to be incorporated into the soil via tillage, putting it in conflict with no-till or reduced tillage systems in crops - a practice which also helps sequester carbon and has many other environmental benefits. Bottom line - this is something we are aware of and it is on our research agenda.

Thanks for the information and the inquiry.

Steven "





After a brief search of Charcoal Wholesalers, The best price so far, for Ag-Grade Charcoal is, trucked from Missouri, $225/ton delivered 900 miles to Virginia, $125/ton at the Charcoal yard,



We need a grand convergence:
In academia; Engineering, agronomist, soil geologist,anthropologist, bio-chemist, mycologist, zoologist ..............................

In the Public sector; waste managers, Extension agents, Environmental engineers, Energy Policy makers,........................................

In the private Sector; corporate farms, fossil fuel generators, small farmers, and the few charcoal makers left (seems mostly in Missouri )

Erich J. Knight

This charcoal-making to save the biosphere sounds inriguing. Is there any way to do it safely in one's backyard?

- Maha Vailo

__________________
When you get down to it, Science answers how. Religion answers why. - hippietrekx

The Warp Point, my new geek culture blog.

Here is an example of a simple retort:

http://www.twinoaksforge.com/BLADSMI...20CHARCOAL.htm

However to do TP at large scales, all volital gases must be recycled into the process and/or collected for bio-fuels.

Is there any way of making charcoal that doesn't require complex stuff like the device in your link, erich? I'm not too good at DIY beyond sawing, gluing, and nailing. Really basic stuff.

- Maha (more a crafter than a constructor) Vailo

__________________
When you get down to it, Science answers how. Religion answers why. - hippietrekx

The Warp Point, my new geek culture blog.

Put wood chips in a tin can. Poke a hole in the top. Put it in a hit fire for a long time. Provided the lid doesn't pop off you will eventually have char as the volitiles are cooked off. There is a simpler way that doesn't require a tin involving mud or something but I don't know the secret of that method. Boy/Girl/Neuter scouts make char by heating white cotton cloth in a tin so they can use it to make fire by rubbing two/three/etc. sticks together.

In case you speak French http://users.skynet.be/els11587/charbonniers_bocq.html

Google Translation:

http://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools

Of all the Energy/Climate solutions I've seen, short of a silver bullet like Fusion or Nano-tech Solar or Thermo-electric, This integrated energy strategy offered by Terra Preta Soil technology may provide the only path to sustain our agricultural and fossil fueled power
structure without climate degradation, A wholistic approach make winners out of all the many parties involved.

I just started checking on the availability of Agricultural grade charcoal, ( dust to 1/2 inch,
high lignin feed stock, 4%- 7% moisture, and the lower the cook temperature the better.)
I can only find it in Missouri, a 22 ton trailer load, delivered to me in Harrisonburg, Virginia, @ $225/ton. In Missouri @ $125/ton

Kingsford Charcoal, may occasionally, at their retorts in West VA , over produce for their bricket manufacture use and may have loads available.

A.M. Leonard , a landscape supplier has 50 lb bags for $70

The Best small scale supply is the grommet "Natural Charcoals", no binders, chemicals, or coal, you do have to grind it up.

The low cook tempts ( 400-700 F) I understand to be important because what is not completely pyrolysised helps the microorganisms populate the small spaces in the char

Brickets are cooked 1500 F

Orchid growers use 20% char in the medium for Lady slippers


I am a landscape design/builder, with other interest in Bio-fuels. I found this Terra Preta work a few months ago and have been posting it around to science forums, local academics, soil science people, local farmers, and authors of relevant news stories.

This is GREAT!! I'm going to read it in greater depth later.
I noticed some carping in the article about COST. "It will cost society Money."

I couldn't help but think of the last thread I was reading, about how we should put humans on Mars, and it is worth the billions or whatever that it would cost.

I entered a post saying I thought Earth was a higher priority than Mars or the moon.

If we had a choice between paying for space exploration or Carbon sequestration... I'd go for the latter.

__________________
"I am happy to report that once again the universe is doing just great, thank you, purring with perfection, ever-changing same as always. Light is still cruising along at 186,000 miles per second, and the expanding universe shows no signs of contracting. At this rate, it won't be long before they'll have to let the photon belt out another notch."
Swami Beyondananda's 2007 State of the Universe address

That looks simple enough (pile a pyramid of sticks around a smoldering fire?) but it looks like it takes up a lot of room. Any other ideas?

- Maha (stumped) Vailo

__________________
When you get down to it, Science answers how. Religion answers why. - hippietrekx

The Warp Point, my new geek culture blog.

No it does not take so much place , I have seen it being done in Algeria in little round pile 2m in diameter. Of course in europe nobody do it this way now , it is an industry , with specialized furnaces where tar and wood alcohol and other by products are recuperated.

No it does not take so much place , I have seen it being done in Algeria in little round pile 2m in diameter. Of course in europe nobody do it this way now , it is an industry , with specialized furnaces where tar and wood alcohol and other by products are recuperated.

WOW.............This is the first I've seen of a pyrolysis process like Dr. Danny Day's on the market:

http://www.bestenergies.com/companie...pyrolysis.html

I spoke with the author of a Terra Preta (TP) story in Solar Today, Ron Larson ,
http://www.solartoday.org/2006/nov_d...CornerND06.pdf
he said he spoke with a major National Geographic editor, who is preparing a big article on TP. but Doesn't know when it will be out.


Also:
In E. O. Wilson's "The Future of Life" he opens the book with a letter to Thoreau updating him on our current understanding of the nature of the ecology of the soils at Walden Pond.


" These arthropods are the giants of the microcosm (if you will allow me to continue what has turned into a short lecture). Creatures their size are present in dozens-hundreds, if an ant or termite colony is presents. But these are comparatively trivial numbers. If you focus down by a power of ten in size, enough to pick out animals barely visible to the naked eye, the numbers jump to thousands. Nematode and enchytraied pot worms, mites, springtails, pauropods, diplurans, symphylans, and tardigrades seethe in the underground. Scattered out on a white ground cloth, each crawling speck becomes a full-blown animal. Together they are far more striking and divers in appearance than snakes, mice, sparrows, and all the other vertebrates hereabouts combined. Their home is a labyrinth of miniature caves and walls of rotting vegetable debris cross-strung with ten yards of fungal threads. And they are just the surface of the fauna and flora at our feet. Keep going, keep magnifying until the eye penetrates microscopic water films on grains of sand, and there you will find ten billion bacteria in a thimbleful of soil and frass. You will have reached the energy base of the decomposer world as we understand it 150 years after you sojourn in Walden Woods."



Certainly there remains much work to just characterize all the estimated 1000 species of microbes found in a pinch of soil, and Wilson concludes at the end of the prolog that
"Now it is up to us to summon a more encompassing wisdom."

I wonder what the soil biome was REALLY like before the cutting and charcoaling of the virgin east coast forest, my guess is that now we see a severely diminished community, and that only very recent Ag practices like no-till have helped to rebuild it.

I found this study in this TP forum :http://forums.hypography.com/earth-s...-preta-26.html

First-ever estimate of total bacteria on earth
http://www.sdearthtimes.com/et0998/et0998s8.html

Nice links.

I'm studying basic chemistry. I can't find "charcoal" on my Periodic Table.

__________________
"I am happy to report that once again the universe is doing just great, thank you, purring with perfection, ever-changing same as always. Light is still cruising along at 186,000 miles per second, and the expanding universe shows no signs of contracting. At this rate, it won't be long before they'll have to let the photon belt out another notch."
Swami Beyondananda's 2007 State of the Universe address

You're quite right that charcoal isn't the name of an element. The element charcoal is mostly comprised of is carbon.

I must be missing something. If you are burning a slow fire, doesn't that release a lot of C02 into the atmosphere? So how does this help the carbon problem?

As to the super-microbes, might there be any downsides, such as upsetting the balance in the soil? A lot of super things help some organisms but upset a longstanding ecological balance.

__________________
"I am happy to report that once again the universe is doing just great, thank you, purring with perfection, ever-changing same as always. Light is still cruising along at 186,000 miles per second, and the expanding universe shows no signs of contracting. At this rate, it won't be long before they'll have to let the photon belt out another notch."
Swami Beyondananda's 2007 State of the Universe address

The traditional charcoal mound method of course emits all of the volatiles and the CO2 of wood used as fuel for the char and all the volatiles in the feedstock of the char product.

The base of the soil food chain are the microbes , yes, soil amendments can unbalance this ecology, and initially char does seem to create a nitrogen shock, that's why Eprida incorporates ammonia from it's closed-loop char process to it's char.

But over time char seems an equal opportunity infrastructure providing more moisture, gas ,and nutrient mobility that fosters a greater diversity of life in deeper soil horizons.

Char does not import "super-microbes" , It provides our indigenous life with really cool digs, a *****en sewer & water system, and food delivery.

Closed-Loop Charcoal Systems:

http://www.eprida.com/home/index.php4

http://www.bestenergies.com/companie...pyrolysis.html

RE: Nature Article — the link given on the previous page,will not allow access without being a subscriber to Nature.

I posted it Before Nature started requiring a subscribing membership, here is a link to the original pdf version. The pdf version is still accessible without a membership.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...l/442624a.html