Laguna. minor nitpik...neutron, proton, hyperon...
When you agitate the quarks in either a neutron or proton, they turn into hyperons....heavier than either neutrons or protons, like the sigma, epsilon, delta, chi....ultimately making the omega minus(Murray Gellmann, Abdus Salaam). (see Sci American. fall of "64", Nov? "The discovery of the Omega Minus" None of these are stable. If they discover a new family of quarks (which is unlikely as measured by the bandwidth of the Z-pole)...then perhaps there might be a stable hyperon. Evidence for it should also show in GRB's as teraelectronvolt or petaelectronvolt photons. Tev's at Dugway are pretty rare. Hunting is fun though, they looked for the Onza for a hundred years. Pete.

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A third rate theory forbids.
A second rate theory explains after the fact.
A first rate theory predicts.
A. Lomonosov

Grashtel. I disagree. The interaction of two electrons in the electromagnetic force is communicated by virtual photons...like two British Man-O-Wars exchanging cannon fusillades. The virtual photons travel at c, not superluminally. If the electron is "eaten" by a black hole, the virtual photons cannot escape the event horizon, and no electrostatic repulsion occurs. (Conservation of electric charge, always seen in particle physics labs, also fails on this side of the event horizon). pete

__________________
A third rate theory forbids.
A second rate theory explains after the fact.
A first rate theory predicts.
A. Lomonosov

like the sigma, epsilon, delta, chi....ultimately making the omega minus
huh?

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"Who does not know anything, must believe everything."
Baroness Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach 1830-1916
our animal welfare board and organisation

Except that black holes have three observable properties mass, angular momentum, and finally charge. So while the electron no longer interacts with the outside universe its charge is inherited by the BH which does interact (otherwise it would just disappear). To learn more about charged BHs look up "Reissner-Nordström black hole" for the solution for a BH that is just charged, and "Kerr-Newman black hole" for the solution for one that is both charged and spinning.

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`Irony` actually does mean `metal like`...

A breach of the inner casing of the magnet, leaving it no more superconducted.
No insuries, just some engineers tearing their's hair, because no one tried to test multiple magnets together.

Guess I will get some more work for my LHC@home client...

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"Who does not know anything, must believe everything."
Baroness Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach 1830-1916
our animal welfare board and organisation

still don't like the LHC. Theorys always changing and we are mucking about with black holes (yes i know they are tiny). great.........

Do you care enough to, say, expend some effort and actually present a persuasive argument against it, or do we have to satisfy ourselves with hearing what your likes and dislikes are?

I'm easy. The latter is OK.

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This has probably already been pointed out, but if it is possible for the LHC to make BHs (which is a very big "if," based on some ideas that have a very, very good chance of being wrong) then they should be generated naturally from cosmic rays. Further, they should evaporate almost instantly. What's the issue?

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

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The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Neo-Luddism?

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Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.

Do you have anything to base your dislike of it on other than "Woo black holes, scary stuff I don't understand"?

I am happy for you to hear my likes and dislikes. Considering how often Theory seems to change I am quite content with myself being cautious as to the outcome of the LHC experiments. Oh and I also have a basic understanding of current Theory and I know why you guys do not worry about it. I worry as Theory by nature seems to change and be challenged a lot (it is after all, how science advances). What if theory in this case is wrong? That's my worry. I don't claim to have scientific evidence to back up my claims. I started this thread as I was worried about it and people have answered. Still I feel cautious.

What will the LHC do that doesn't already happen on Earth, naturally? It's great for being able to study high energy particle physics better, but I haven't seen where it would do anything novel.

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Which theory does change often?
Most theories don't get changed much. Only subtle additions are made.
It is not that we have to fear that the Theory of Relativity will be overthrown.

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"Who does not know anything, must believe everything."
Baroness Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach 1830-1916
our animal welfare board and organisation

Well as you said parts of Theory is changed from time to time. I am always reading about our understanding of science changing. What we thought was correct one week is different the next. I don't fear relativity being totally changed! it's a pretty darn good model!!

But you seem to think that those parts are rather big.
Hawking radiation being non existant and the fact that super high energy particles in the upper atmosphere do not create BHs, but less energetic particles in man build colliders would, are not subtle changes of GRT and Quantum Mechanics...

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"Who does not know anything, must believe everything."
Baroness Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach 1830-1916
our animal welfare board and organisation

Grashtel. I looked up R-N black holes here:
http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/211.fall...ack%20Hole.htm
"Inside the event horizon, the light continues towards the singularity....which according to the article it will reach." The light has no different properties than the virtual carrier photons of quantum EM,so there it sits. No virtual photons, no charge felt. The electron and it's charge both must disappear. It is inconsistent internally. I still disagree. pete.

__________________
A third rate theory forbids.
A second rate theory explains after the fact.
A first rate theory predicts.
A. Lomonosov

Well forgive me if I'm wrong but I heard that they actually want to create "Black Saturns" which are black holes with rings around them. Look it up if you like. It was in a small bit of current goings on in The BBC's sky at night magazine. It said they are hoping to see black holes with rings around them in the tests and they would be dubbed black Saturns. Personally I don't want them to create black holes with the fail safe being an untested Theory.

Dirty_g, do you understand that anything the LHC could do would be happening naturally anyway? That's the "fail safe."

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

If anything happening in the LHC had any reasonable chance of destroying the earth, we wouldn't be here to worry. It would have already happened a thousand times over naturally.

Laguna. As particle collisions achieved historically higher and higher energies, more massive particles were produced. They were all unstable decaying via the weak force, ultimately into the lightest members of the first family in the Standard Model. Cosmic rays can also reach this domain, but sporadically. Under controlled conditions in linacs and synchrotrons a flurry or resonance of particles is seen at specific energies. Since E/c² = mass from Special Relativity...an energy resonance translates into a massive particle's ephemeral existence. Listed are some of the Eightfold way which predicted, using the quark model, and then found, the Omega minus in Feb. 1964 with all of it's attendant properties. It was that article in Sci. American that set me on this path. Pete. check:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...baryon.html#c1

__________________
A third rate theory forbids.
A second rate theory explains after the fact.
A first rate theory predicts.
A. Lomonosov

But it doesnt all happen naturally on Earth all the time though.

What doesn't happen naturally? As we've covered repeatedly, cosmic rays certainly do reach and exceed the energies that would be seen at the LHC, so yes indeed those things happen naturally on Earth.

I ask again, do you understand this point?

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

... and the wheel, goes round ...

Dirty_g, is there any value in board members going over this for the umpteenth time? If so, great - but we're on page 10 of this thread and you don't seem to have grasped anything explained to you.

I am grossly uneducated when it comes to particle physics, but even I get the point that nothing an LHC can do hasn't been happening in nature for aeons. I'd be more worried about what might be contaminating your peanut butter, spinach or pet food than what an LHC could do.

CJSF

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Two years ago moved from my town
I was looking up past the city lights
But the city lights got in my way

See the constellation ride across the sky
No cigar, no lady on his arm
Just a guy made of dots and lines

-from "See The Constellation"
by They Might Be Giants

NPR did a report this AM on the LHC. It included an interview with one of the scientists, and specifically addresses the "mini-black hole" concerns. (See the section 'The God Particle'.)
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=9433495

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Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
Isaac Asimov

Big bang at the LHC.

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What brings us together is stronger than what pulls us apart

Actually, i think the above post does not belong here. I apologize.

I´m opening a new thread on the GS section, case someone is in the mood for a discussion.

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What brings us together is stronger than what pulls us apart

From the atricle "Theorists have all sorts of ideas for what might materialize. De Rujula says the machine will probe what he calls "the vacuum of space."

That part there worries me. They dont actually know. So there you go. Thanks for posting the link though. Very informative. So they are not sure what will actually turn up. Great. Still I shouldnt worry as i'm told by manmy people "this type of thing happens all the time in nature" even though they are trying to re create conditions from the big bang in some cases. So does the big bang happen all the time in nature then? No. Theres my point (no I dont think they are going to make the big bang again, just things from around that time which could include very violent energy). It doesnt. Yes particle hit the earths atmosphere. So what?? My only point has not been that I am worried about just black holes (though they have been a concern). It's not my only point though. As the quote above says They have ideas about what might materialze but they dont actually have a clue.

NOTE: conditions FROM the "Big Bang"... they are not going to re-create the "Big Bang."

CJSF

__________________
Two years ago moved from my town
I was looking up past the city lights
But the city lights got in my way

See the constellation ride across the sky
No cigar, no lady on his arm
Just a guy made of dots and lines

-from "See The Constellation"
by They Might Be Giants

I already noted that.