That's exactly what I meant. You can be bit by your dog or choke on your cornflakes in the morning. To live is to risk.

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They scare the hell out of me... the black hole thing has been my fear since they proposed trying it. Ok so it can only suck in sub-atomic particles... so it does that, and grows, and grows, and grows some more.

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Lol, I think earth being sucked into a black hole is a bit worse than coughing on some cornflakes or hitting your thumb with a hammer though.

That thought came to my mind too.

How many people died in the past year from a black hole? How many choked to death on food?

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As has been pointed out before in this thread, a black hole with the maximum mass possible for the LHC to create would evaporate in a flash of Hawking radiation almost as soon as it was created! The energies of cosmic rays are orders of magnitude larger than any that could be created by the LHC or any accelerator we will ever be able to build. If long lived quantum black holes were possible, we would have been gone a long time ago!

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I'm not sure I understand your point.

Do you mean that because no one has died from a black hole unlike choking on cornflakes that it's extreamly unlikely/less likely for the black hole thing to happen from an experiment like the LHC?

If so, I don't think there are a lot of people around the world doing experiments that may have as large consequences as the LHC, so the cornflake choking/death by black hole ratio is meaningless.

Well, I guess they must obviously know that the risk of anything really bad happening is nearly non existant, otherwise surely they wouldn't do the experiement.

People like myself can't really complain since we or at least I have extreamly limited knowledge on this kind of thing.

I'm saying that your fears should be in proportion to the probability of the event causing you potential harm. If you need to worry about things, worry about things that are actually likely to be harmful.

You can obviously ask about it. But if you read through this thread, you should be able to conclude that the fears are ungrounded.

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The scientists behind the Manhattan Project made bets amongst themselves about whether or not they were about to ignite the atmosphere.

But is there evidence that this was a serious concern. This website on the Trinity test implies that it was just a lark to kill time.

This wikipedia article seems to say it was speculated about early in the project (1942), but calculations showed it was not possible.

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Maybe. My point is that assuming scientists will only do something if there is zero risk to the population is a very dangerous assumption, not backed up by facts. Scientists are people...and most people are more strongly motivated by self interest than safety.

And a continuing point in this thread is that there is no human activity that has ZERO risk. I also have no belief that scientists have a different attitude to risk-benefit analysis than any other group, and in fact probably do a better job of it.

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People are people on average.

The fact that they themselves are sitting right on top of the experiment should be an indication of their confidence.

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Right. Humans never do anything stupid or self destructive.

Humans also do things that are wonderful and creative and open our minds to the amazing complexity of the universe. So which set of activities do you think the LHC experiments are going to be in? And what exactly would you like to do about it?

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You're right...our species has an interesting dichotomy, to be sure. My point, though, is assuming one group of people (in this case scientists) are somehow different and, by implication, better than the rest of humanity is a dangerous assumption, not backed up by anything more than wishful thinking.

I am saying that any such experiments should be open and watched. Not that they shouldn't take place (I don't have enough facts to have an opinion about that); my point is merely that blind faith in any group of people is foolish.

While I've mentioned that I do have some faith in them, it's not like 100% faith or anything, I'm always open to the fact that there'll always be some scientists who will put their interests before the worlds. Heck, there'll be ones who will be for total human anhialation, or the anialation of a particular race or something.

Even geniuses can be mentally ill.

And I want to be there with a liquid lunch and a rubber band, just in case. The chance at immortality is just too enticing!

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The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

I should point out something that is important to this. When we are talking about something like the LHC, we are not talking about a single (mad) scientist, with maybe a couple of grad students or his favorite assistant Igor. We are talking about a team of scientist (mostly PhDs in physics) that probably number in the hundreds, and a large administrative staff (including the representatives of several governments) that oversee this whole thing.

So, are you trying to lead me to believe that this large body of people, who are all very well informed about the research going on, are all going to "put their interests before the world's" and allow, either through neglect or desire for the world to be destroyed? Frankly, I find the thought preposterous.

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Are you suggesting a large group of people can't do something evil or just stupid? Perhaps you should ask the Jews or the American Indians their thoughts on the matter; they may have a different insight.

Blind faith is never a good thing...unless it's a band with Steve Winwood and Eric Clapton in it. All of this said, I remind you that I am not against this research.

That sounds like a pretty silly bet. I know which side I'd bet on.

I've got a great bet for anybody who's willing. I bet that humanity will not be annihilated tomorrow. If it isn't, you pay me $100. If humanity is wiped out, I'll pay you $1,000. Any takers?

And about the OP, even if there is a danger, it seems to be that being eaten by a black hole would be one of the most pleasant ways to go. Once it gets going, I imagine there would be very little pain or time to realize what is going on. Plus, there would be nobody left to have to clean up.

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So all those scientist working at the LHC are trying to destroy earth?
Or do they simply not care if their work would?
They do not care for their own lives?
They do not care for the life of their collegues?
They do not care for the life of their families?
Everybody at CERN does not?
Not a single one of the members of the 20 national boards does not care?
And all the other scientists in the world that have knowledge of what is going to happen when the experiments start, those do not care?

OK... Sure.

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So I'm dumb for having 100% faith in them, yet I'm dumb if I don't?

Oh well, you can't win 'em all.

This reminds me of the argument recently had between certain SETI researchers and people like David Brin in regards to potentially starting an active SETI program. In effect - alerting the galaxy to our presence.

In fact it would be interesting to measure the odds about which outcome is more possible:

1) using METI to provoke alien contact

or

2) Blowing ourselves up with the LHC

Any geniuses got any figures on such a comarison?

Though i agree with David Brin in the SETI vs METI argument because Alien contact is a concept most people can understand and have an opinion about; i tend to think normal non-scientific civilians would not be able to understand the science behind LHC experiments hence getting public input into this question would be futile.

No, it is not a question of faith, or the morals of the researchers at CERN. Actually read through this thread and all the linked articles. Come to your own conclusions about the safety of this project. But when you judge the risks and rewards of this project, compare it to the risks and rewards of other human tasks and keep in mind that NO task has ZERO risk. And before you type a reply, calculate the risk of using your computer (electrocution, radiation from the monitor, eye strain, carpal tunnel, etc.).

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Did I miss something? Who said any of these things?

Note the difference between "a large group" and "all". Unless you're advocating guilt by association.

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How likely is a black hole with the mass of a couple protons to actually succeed in gobbling anything else up? I'd expect that, on the scale involved, the black hole's gravity would still be too weak to overcome the other forces.