Philosophers, I´d say, the people who took care of these affairs prior to the advent of science, which is a very new thing.

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The fox knows many things but the hedgehog knows one BIG thing

oh im not starting a rucus, i have read the whole thread and i do admit any sci fi cataclysmic fear i might of had is gone( i didnt really have one though, just what you see on the news is basically: CERN is firing up/some are affraid of the apocalypse/scientists dismiss those fears) this is the impression i was left after i saw the news on CNN i had to come on to this forum and do some reading to know the black holes that "might" be generated are so small and will vanish so fast there are no worries about it by the scientists involved and i do understand small and fast arent the right words, there understatments to the umteenth degree of the size and lifespan of these blackholes(i understand the size hierarchy of these things atoms,electrons "quarks"). I do agree that people being scared is no reason to stop, in this case because, like you said "someone on the planet who doesn't understand". im just saying i can see why these fears have emerged the media kinda want us to not really know if its safe or not. Let me just give you an example, i am american but i live in Portugal and when the tsunami hit Thailand there was one news channel that said if x mountain or hill top in africa crumbles of (sorry i cant remeber the name, not kilimanjaro)and land slided into the ocean this could happen here!! refering to the portuguese coast whilst they showed images of THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW scene were the giant wave hits New York!!!!!! Guys my grandma had to take her heart pills lol
again thanks for the interesting informative read i signed up yesterday just to reply=)

(
Wasn't that the side (already partly underwater) of one of the islands off the coast of Africa?
)

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Wikipedia: Cumbre Vieja

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Trudging back to hadrons and the large gizmos that bang them together, BA Blog: Comedy, bosons, and art aims us at a funny piece by Chris Morris: Massive bosons blew my unit.

That lethality measure is funny... but maybe for the rest, you had to be there. The BA probably was, as narrative character Astroblogger -- not to be confused with Underpants Guy.

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As with anything in the media, remember that they thrive on controversy. The more controversial they can make something appear, the more viewers will keep watching. And accidentally watching the commercials too, but that's pure coincidence, I'm sure.

I'm not saying that the media in general always get things wrong, just keep in mind that they may have other interests besides just bringing facts.

I think you mean Las Palmas in the Canary Islands, close to Africa. There is a controversial theory that part of the island might collapse and cause a tsunami. I guess you might even find a thread about it here, use the search box

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" -- Charles Darwin
"Ignorance convinces" -- slang's dad
"Your right to hold an opinion is not being contested. Your expectation that it be taken seriously is." -- Jason Thompson

Once in a while though, they get it right. Or, at least very close.

I thought cosmic log on msnbc yesterday had a fairly informative article about this subject. A good balance of "laymanism" and technical background (IMO)

The Benefits of Black Holes
It's basically an interview with Michelangelo Mangano who is one of the authors of the safety report.

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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

I read the article and it is well presented. I found this question interesting:-
So I would assume if Geneva does disappear into a great hole in the ground as predicted by Nostradamus then other models would then come in for due consideration. Naturally in one of those models the nuclear weak force is variable and may only have a very limited window of opportunity to dilute high level material used for power and weapons, industrial and medical purposes.

From the home page of the CERN site is this:-
My hope is that they are correct for the right reasons.
Michael.

Nostradamus? your kidding right?

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All Moderation in Purple

No there is this from the quatrains:-

To express it in terms of astrology (planets) and alchemy the interpretation would be very broad so this would be about the closest I have come across. Now the important thing is not to take the things just at sound like face value and in the context of stuff around them but was an interesting utube of what some are saying will happen (and worries the heck out of me too).

Science the prediction of higher dimensions Nostradamus Vision of exterminate everything.
... " Circular ring of CERN ......................... " ringed planet Saturn play on name of CERN
... " cryogenic ring ................................. " gold cold another name play
... " proton beam ................................... " iron ions another name play
... " head on proton collisions ..................... " RAYPOS positive ions
... " cool down phase complete ................... " ready to enter ion introduction
... " safety report complete ....................... " all should leave Geneva ringed by ions
... " no adverse findings ........................... " signs of worst storm season tornadoes ever

Yes it takes some believing, just as some might find it hard to believe that a variation of Lorentz contraction due to velocity gives asymmetry to the weak force in the way that the surface of the earth gives an apparent up and down to feel to space.

You asked about Nostradamus, really and I shared Nostradamus ... really.

Fair enough the alternate science I propose is rejected because I do not know quantum science. Fair enough prophesy is rejected because I am no prophet even if a new mineral manganese silicate has just been discovered in a comet as predicted.

Fair enough science must be right even if the mathematics proving we are all at some non zero point in our lives every position in the universe and simultaneously magnitudes more divided than the standard unit of energy the electron volt, the sum of all histories. Quite frankly if written in plain language to describe anything other than mathematics it would be branded satanic to call oneself the universe and therefore God. Well fair enough because I reject that.

All things fair enough. What about one little physical detail? A micro black hole is supposed to be exothermic, right. And we talk of a micro black hole, why?

With the beams fully illuminated the capacity is to generate over 600,000 micro black holes a week. One small detail like getting exothermic wrong and the core of the earth freezes. No big deal right? Wrong!

Place a rose in liquid nitrogen and then tap it on the table and it shatters. Freeze the core and if an earthquake deep below the surface like the Russian quake some 650 or so kilometers below the surface occurs then who is to say the whole earth might not shatter like some giant frozen crystal.

Future generations are predicted to tear down the cities to expose the earth to the sun. What if it is simpler than that. What if all that is left is the shattered fragments of civilization to be pushed aside.

The simple plus minus of is it hot or cold is all it takes. Fair enough it may be a handy thing to know if new propulsion is available or nuclear physics can answer a few extra questions but what if it is at the risk of the earth opening up and swallowing humanity, hot or cold that is all it takes.

That's manganese silicide!

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Nostradamus stuff is so open ended (like a lot of stuff from people who pretend to predict the future) that it can be interpreted to relate to anything you want. That's the way taro cards "work", for example.

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"I'm as accurate as any psychic. And I'm a cartoon!" -- Squidward

"Arrrgh, the laws of physics be a harsh mistress!" -- Bender

sorry, can't understand this.

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All Moderation in Purple

Didn't the giant terror king of the sky kill us all eight Augusts ago or something?

Or was it Sadaam wearing a blue turban a few years before that?

CJSF

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Two years ago moved from my town
I was looking up past the city lights
But the city lights got in my way

See the constellation ride across the sky
No cigar, no lady on his arm
Just a guy made of dots and lines

-from "See The Constellation"
by They Might Be Giants

Whose translation from the original French text is this? That of a real scholar who actually knows some French and a bit of the context of Nostradamus' time or one of the woo-woo sites you frequent?

Not only is this not right, it's not even wrong.

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Microsoft is over if you want it.

The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

You also do not seem to understand Newtonian physics, special relativity, and general relativity as well.
Wow, that Nostradamus guy sure gets around! Manganese minerals in a comet! Who'd'a thunk it? But seriously, prophecy and Nostradamus are not admissible as evidence in the court of science. Please do not do this again.

One of the things pounded into me in high school English (that actually stuck!) was the difference between "prophecy" the noun and "prophesy" the verb. I could prophesy that you will never learn this difference; on the other hand my record of prophecy is not very good.
I don't understand this part of the rant either.
Reference please? Where do you get this figure?
And what makes you think we are so completely wrong about micro black holes? References please, and no prophetic quatrains.

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Microsoft is over if you want it.

The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

So... Is it on yet?

Have the atoms of my brain spontaneously jumped 3 feet to the left and proven that the LHC is going to kill us all in a violent hell storm that we won't even notice since it's moving at the speed of light?

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wisdom is not given, it is earned

"All should leave Geneva.
Saturn turns from gold to iron,
The contrary positive ray (RAYPOZ) will exterminate everything,
there will be signs in the sky before this."

is not really a good translation of the quatrain. It says in French:

"Migrés, migrés de Genefue trestous,
Saturne d'or en fer se changera,
Le contre RAYPOZ exterminera tous,
Auant l'aruent le Ciel signes fera."

"Raypoz" has not meaning in French. So it says something like:

"Leave, leave Geneva, all of you,
Saturn will change from gold to iron,
The anti-RAYPOZ will exterminate all,
Before his coming the sky will show signs."

The other thing to keep in mind is that the quatrain is part of a longer story, about kings having a summit at Lac Leman and stuff like that. It is clearly about war, not scientific experiments.

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As above, so below

I confess that I think it's screamingly hilarious that some nutters profess to be seriously worried that the LHC will Destroy the Earth. Or Chemtrails. Or soulsucking reptilian demonoids.

But I suppose we should pity them...

Buried in here is a substory of interest to saner citizens: how the popular media distorts science, with a lotta help (unfortunately) from absurdly over-hyped press releases.

I have been looking for a KSJT (?) post I saw the other day which offered an illustration from coverage of the LHC, but no luck so far. The editorialist cited a progression of press releases which gradually mutated (as in a game of Rumor) from "simulating conditions similar to those which obtained shortly after the Big Bang" (and even this is a wild exaggeration) to, well, headlines like these:

• Recreating the Big Bang (BBC)
• How scientists plan to recreate the Big Bang
• Germans to recreate the Big Bang with a massive particle acclerator
• Nazi scientists plan to destroy the Universe by recreating the Big Bang

(OK, I made that last one up.)

I did find that This KSJT post cites this blog post from someone you all know well.

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Chris Hillman

Read these PF posts. Avoid Wikipedia--- except for these versions. Read this and this suggested sticky. When asked for advice, I always say: never take advice!

No, nothing doing yet. If you were following the LHC Countdown webpage like a lot of people were I'm afraid its irrelevant as its not owned or operated by CERN or anyone who works for them.

According to someone I spoke to who works on one of the experiments they're looking to have the first beams injected at the end of this month or the beginning of August, which will begin the long process of gradually starting it up properly. They're hoping for the first low energy collisions around October/November before they go into the winter cooldown.

It won't be until next spring that they start really ramping things up properly and it'll be a while after that before anyone starts to see any interesting results. There's no big red "ON" button for them to push, really.

That goes without saying... That button would be green if it existed. Jeesh

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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

Sorry I got mixed up, the big red button is the one that says "destroy world" on it.

Like this?

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One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

No, wait! Stop! Don't push that button!



... I wanna push it!

Fred

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"For shame, gentlemen, pack your evidence a little better against another time."
-- John Dryden, "The Vindication of The Duke of Guise" 1684

And it's a USB device? Cool! I want one!

Just hope I can find an OS/2 driver for it ...

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Microsoft is over if you want it.

The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

OS/2! It is in the end of the world. And yes, it is apparently a USB port. Here's a link. Have fun.

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At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

I've been using OS/2 (and its current "distribution" eComStation) for the last 14 years. I don't just have "Microsoft is over if you want it" in my sig, I live it.

I hope that CERN is still using UNIX or some variant. I would hate to see them use Windows only to have the LHC's computers "pwned" by some "31337 h4X0rz"!

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Microsoft is over if you want it.

The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

And here is some more before and afterward:

42
From Barcelona, from Genoa and Venice,
From Sicily pestilence Monaco joined:
They will take their aim against the Barbarian fleet,
Barbarian driven 'way back as far as Tunis.

43
On the point of landing the Crusader army
Will be ambushed by the Ishmaelites,
Struck from all sides by the ship Impetuosity,
Rapidly attacked by ten elite galleys.

44
Leave, leave Geneva every last one of you,
Saturn will be converted from gold to iron,
Raypoz will exterminate all who oppose him,
Before the coming the sky will show signs.


45
None will remain to ask,
Great Mendosus will obtain his dominion:
Far from the court he will cause to be countermanded
Piedmont, Picardy, Paris, Tuscany the worst.

46
Be gone, flee from Toulouse ye red ones,
For the sacrifice to make expiation:
The chief cause of the evil under the shade of pumpkins:
Dead to strangle carnal prognostication.

47
The undersigned to an infamous deliverance,
And having contrary advice from the multitude:
Monarch changes put in danger over thought,
Shut up in a cage they will see each other face to face.

48
The great city of the maritime Ocean,
Surrounded by a crystalline swamp:
In the winter solstice and the spring,
It will be tried by frightful wind.

49
Ghent and Brussels will march against Antwerp,
The Senate of London will put to death their King:
Salt and wine will overthrow him,
To have them the realm turned upside down.


But being a N-skeptic, I guess I will be berated that I assume that one should look at it in context? Ah well ....

Although from another N-website the translation is given as:

In 9.44, Nostradamus attempts to name the third antichrist during his conquest of Switzerland:

9.44
Migrate, migrate from Geneva everyone,
Saturn from gold to iron will change,
Those against RAYPOZ shall all be exterminated,
Before the invasion the sky will show signs.

So, if RAYPOZ is indeed the LHC, than anyone who objects against it will be exterminated!!!!!!! YEEEHAAAWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!

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善數, 不用籌策 (shàn shù, bù yòng chóu cè)
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“A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is”
道德經, 二十七 (dào dé jīng, 27)

I would like to say up front that I am a scientist, albeit in an unrelated field (mathematical biology) and I believe that the danger posed by the LHC is small (although I don't believe that size of the risk can be estimated given that it depends on theories that can't be tested without the LHC - to be fair, so do the doomsday scenarios). That being said I think there is an important philosophical issue here: If extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs, don't then extraordinary risks require extraordinary caution? I wont pretend that I understand the science, but my understanding of the argument against the black hole doomsday scenario is

0. Black holes wont be produced
CERN has said that they may be produced at the rate 1/sec

1. If produced, the black holes will dissipate
This depends on Hawking radiation, which hasn't been observed (a theory
which may be confirmed or disproved by the LHC)

2. If they persist, the black holes will not be captured by the earth's gravity
It seems to me that predicting the velocity of the results of a collision of
two particles moving close to the speed of light (especially if they have
the same mass) is at best very hard to do

3. If they are captured by the earth, they will grow very slowly (wouldn't grow significantly in the earth's lifespan)
This also depends on untested theories as we haven't actually observed micro black holes

I don't believe that the probability of this sequence of events can be calculated. In light of this as well as the potentially catastrophic results (also based on untested theory) isn't a much higher standard of caution warranted?

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