Read this summary of the LSAG's report. From there, you can read the entire report.

The professionals in the field have determined that there is absolutely no danger to the Earth from the LHC. The fear-mongering is coming from those who have little understanding of the issues. They hear "black hole" and get all worked up, like those who hear "nuclear" and break out in a sweat. They do not understand, therefore they fear.

[conspiracy-theorist]Of course, this is what you would expect them to say, in order to calm the masses. Therefore they're lying and we're all gonna die![/conspiracy-theorist]

Fred

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If you read the studies on the subject (see links in previous posts), the scientists considering the safety issue themselves said that theory alone was insufficient. Rather, they considered the number of high energy particles (many higher energy than will ever occur in the LHC) that already hit the Earth, the other planets, stars, as well as extremely dense objects like neutron stars. In all of that, there is no evidence for the type of events that could have catastrophic effects in the LHC.

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Didn't they say the same for asbestos, and were we not all expected to come into line with there opinions? And what about cigarettes? Didnt even the surgeon general pronounce them as safe.

What I find disturbing here is how so called 'intelligent thinkers' not only dismiss legitimate safety concerns. But ridicule those who dare to question whether or not these scientist can be trusted. The less one knows about this subject the more legitimate the concerns become as they cannot be understood. The argument then comes down to the trust of a few people. being not a history student dosn't disqualify me from knowing the track record of mankind when it comes to business. (and this endeavour is as much business as science)

And what about the young kids who grew up under the threat of all out nuclear war who layed in bed at night fearfull all their brother, sisters, parents and family would be wiped out any day?

Perhaps it is you who does not understand the heart and motives of men.

The problem is there's no reason why anyone involved in this project should care less about my sons or daughters or neighbors, so maybe they want rock solid guarantees based on known science that this cannot possibly go wrong- investigated and supervised by independents who have no vested interest in a successful outcome.

And if someone says here take this injection there is only 1 in 10000 chance you will be a vegetable then I have every right to say "hangon give me some facts and reassurances here before I decide to do this"

instead of being intelligent by knowing everything, how about tempering your intelligence by gaining wisdom in the motives of your fellow man, and the respect that his life is not for you to place on the chopping block

I haven't seen much ridicule, particularly from the people at CERN. But are the safety concerns really legitimate?

I don't understand this. So the less someone knows about a subject, the more one can question those who do, to the point of stopping work on a project? The answers to questions about the LHC are available in many places, both in this very thread and on the CERN website. It is legitimate to ask them. But at some point the person asking the questions should take a little responsibility to understand the answers being given.

I was one of those kids. I don't see what this has to do with the LHC.

Your image of scientists seems to be that they are inhuman, unfeeling monsters who have no personal concerns for the human race, but are just interested in their research. As a scientist (PhD in Chemistry), I'm hurt that you feel that way. Maybe you should meet and get to know some actual scientists.

And specifically, please let us know about a single independent (of CERN) scientist (with sufficient background in nuclear physics) that has expressed any concerns about the LHC.

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One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

If there is even the slimmest of chances something could go wrong then it is up to the those doing/funding the experiment to explain and seek permission from those it may endanger- its called good manners
and until yourself or someone you trust can assure you you would be silly to go along with the idea. There shoulkd be much debate and much assurance before even committing to undertake something that has the possibility of danger.

Sometimes I hurt too but I choose to love people even though they are not perfect.
Im sure science has been conducted both selfishly and ruthlessly in the past. we all want to move forward in knowledge, but we all have the same backyard now

I, too, am deeply offended by physmoon's attitude, but as (s)he, by his/her own admission, doesn't actually know what (s)he's talking about, I guess I should just ignore it, like I would the whining of a little child.

Did he? Didn't he? I don't know, but obviously you don't either (you phrased it as a question.)

The people who forced the removal of asbestos and launched the campaign against smoking were not random "chicken-littles" that decided to not accept "there"(sic) opinions. They were scientists and doctors who did actual research, and proved that there were health implications.

If given their way, the chicken-littles of this world would try to ban every new alloy, mineral or plastic, because it might be the next asbestos. That despite real scientific studies that showed no health implications.

"Better safe than sorry", the C-Ls would say, as humanity sits shivering in caves, because they never learned to make fire. "It might burn the whole world up! Who are we to risk the lives of the Uggs in the valley, by playing with fire?"

These are not legitimate safety concerns. If you know nothing at all about the situation, you can't criticise it reasonably, all you can do is make a lot of noise.

And scientists may very well not be more intelligent than you, but they are less ignorant.

Your logic has a lot of holes in it. "The less we know, the more appropriate it is for us to make the decision!"

And you no longer have any excuse for "not understanding". This issue has been discussed to death in this very thread, yet you didn't even bother reading it. You'd rather feel frightened and offended. (If you had read it, you would have been able to raise specific objections to the explanations. Instead, you gas off in vague generalities about "trust".)

And what's this nonsense about "trusting" scientists? Do you really think that everyone who gets a BSc or better has to sell their souls for it?

And remember, we're not talking about a handful of physicists, all working for the same company, and all paid off. We're talking about every single particle physicist in the world! No-one with any actual knowledge of the science has raised any questions.

You act as if past performance is all that is required to judge future results. But then you cherry-pick your data. For every Thalidomide, there are tens of thousands of drugs that have improved the quality and quantity of human life. For every health-hazard like asbestos, there have been thousands of new metals, alloys, minerals and plastics that have been safe, cheap and useful.

And what the hell does this have to do with "business"? CERN is a non-profit organisation. They have to beg for grants, like any other lab. They're just very good at it. There is no profit-motive here that will pressure people into taking chances.

And anyway, I must reiterate: Hundreds of thousands of scientists not associated with CERN in any way, all agree that the risks of the LHC destroying all life on earth, are less than the odds of 6.5 billion meteorites crashing into earth at the same time, end each one hitting one human, thus wiping out the species anyway.

OK, you got me. I, and every other person with a science degree, sacrificed our conscience and humanity at the altar of learning. We no longer appreciate what ordinary (read: ignorant) people feel. We have no emotions, no fears, no empathy, and no concept of "consequences".

Or maybe you have no idea what you're talking about.

So true. Not one physicist on the planet has children, friends or neighbours of his own.

Yeah, like every physicist in the world works directly for CERN, and will lose his job if it gets closed down.

NOT!

Sorry if I keep coming back to the "every physicist in the world" argument. But you keep repeating the "we can't trust anyone who isn't as ignorant as we are" red herring. As well as its variation "scientists are inhuman monsters with no empathy for their fellow man"

See? You did it again!

Perhaps you're wondering why I am so angry at you. Most likely, though, you're just writing me off as another "mad scientist" who's plan to destroy the world has been thwarted.

This is the real reason: You don't know me from Adam, yet you have waltzed in here and, metaphorically, spat in my face and kicked my dog. How can I not be angry?

Under the guise of being a "concerned citizen" you have actually displayed staggering arrogance and self-righteousness.

I believe this is what was said:-
The top scientists running the project are on record as saying they would not be surprised if two red dragons popped out of the experiment. On the one hand the LHC project is being promoted as being completely safe by those most academically qualified to guarantee the safety aspects at CERN and on the other that it will produce unknown results.

I have been on a number of forums and I realize that it may be frustrating to the scientific community to constantly deal with public concerns but I can politely assure you that some individuals do not respond with confidence to a put down even if it is from someone highly academically qualified.

This experiment is entirely in the hands of the scientific community which has guaranteed the safety aspect and in my case at least a nervous member of the public praying to God that we do not get hurt in the search for the God Particle. What I am saying is I understand the communication between peers takes a certain adversarial format. That same adversarial format may quieten the non scientist by intimidation but it is not a good way to allay fears.

Michael

Michael,
I'll admit that I might not have followed your point completely, so I'm sorry if my response is a little off.

I can only speak for myself, but I have no problem answering questions from individuals who have concerns or questions - I actually love to do it and it is one of the reasons I hang out here. And I think if you look at my responses in this thread, I have tried to answer people's questions. I also DO NOT believe an adversarial format is necessary or desired, either between scientists or between scientists and non-scientists, particularly for topics like this.

But I have a problem, as Stuart van Onselen pointed out, when someone just assumes that scientists are evil and don't care, and will not at least TRY to understand the answers (I am not referring to you).

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One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

Thank you Swift,

There may be those of us, try as we might who will never understand ... cheers
Michael

Yes i am guilty of generalization in that there were posts that address the concerns with the LHC. My post was aimed at the attitude of ridiculing safety concerns and dismissing people as nuts.

Yes and in our rush to introduce all of them many people have had there life cut short. Sure no one realized that mercury and lead would kill us in such sad ways but in hindsight if someone said wait is this safe- who would have been proved right?

I have had a couple of doctors that when questioned exactly what they had just presribed me and what were the side effects get offended as if im saying - well I dont know what they actually were thinking but needless to say i didnt go back. If they cant explain what should go in my body then i wont have them as a doctor.
Private enterprise and the scientific community has a track record of corruption and mistakes and require outward supervision just like politicians, instead of attacking me why not admit-

that public concerns have been raised so the public has the right to question these concerns and get a respectful answer.

geesh

a touch dramatic

sorry for the spit may i offer you a tissue?

physmoon,
Might I suggest we take this in a slightly different direction.

Have you looked at the CERN site and have you read through this thread? Do you still have questions after looking at that? What specific questions do you have on the LHC? What would be required for you to feel comfortable about it?

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One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

And then don't be selfish: imagine what my mother would require to feel comfortable about it. And my child? And my dog? And the strange lady who lives down the street who doesn't trust anyone? To what lengths must CERN go to assure all of them that the LHC is 100-percent safe? How does CERN secure their permission to operate if it cannot proceed without it?

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So has every other institution like religion and politics. I think the discipline of science fares pretty well in comparison.

Lead, mercury, asbestos, and the like have been in widespread use throughout history before science as a discipline existed. You're simply blaming every thing you don't like on scientists, and ignoring science's contribution to the well-being of mankind.

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Olsen the moderator.

totally agree every institution!! unfortunately an awful lot of nice people go way off track and loose the plot in all sorts of ways

I dont think it was sciences fault that when I was a little kid I ate lots of nutrigrain cause I thought it was healthy and good for me, when it was just sugar mixed with something (but i do blame kellogs and there products are banned in my house as no one has taken responsibility to make sure the products they market to young children are fit for comsumption)

You can deny it all you want but science has been very arrogant on many occasions when ethics safety and such are questioned.

OK, lemme be a bit more constructive and less adverserial:

We only ridicule people who are willfully ignorant. After all, everyone is ignorant of something!

But when you explain 10,000 times why something is safe (not just vague generalisations and admonishments to trust scientists) and yet people insist on ignoring those explanations, well ... some of us ain't all that keen on playing Sisyphus, ya know?


You don't like it? Sorry, but I can only do "dramatic". My performances are never "understated", "subtle" or "nuanced". ;-)

Well that is a very good question, A glossy tv campaign wont do it because most of the 'nuts' are probably already aware of that tactic, hmm First there has to be outside independent supervision and investigation. one problem with scientist like engineers they get so excited about what we can achieve, and gloss over somethings, now factor into that the business side (and there is one- a big one. money like this dosnt get raised by a 24hour fast) then there would have to be proof that it will not be dangerous.

and...... of coarse the starvation and disease in Africa would have to be taken care of so as to justify the enormous outpouring of money above the pain and suffering of our fellow brothers.

of coarse disregard the last comment I know that no one here would wish that on anyone and if im not to be a hypocrite I would send my money there before i spent it on a pc to chat here! this is a whole other topic which I might post on say...the cycling forum? no wait... does anyone know a western decadence forum?

I understand the frustration, but the track record of man lacks in every area. Full independent policing of safety procedures and ethics is unfortunately the only way to even begin for me to feel comfortable.

Take nuclear reactors, they are run by private enterprise. can they be trusted to maintain safety standards? sometimes yes sometimes no. There must be as part of the standard operation completely independent inspections on all facilities and procedures.

Until you not only have a open book but also an opposition party, Union, safety commission, whatever is appropriate you cant expect anyone but your friends to be placated by assurances.

That wasn't exactly what I meant. I meant is there some particular information that we on BAUT can tell you personally. For example, the most compelling piece of information for me is that particle collisions like the type that will be created in the LHC happen ALL THE TIME in the upper atmosphere of Earth (from incoming cosmic rays), that these collisions are at much higher energy than what the LHC is capable of, that they have happened since the creation of the Earth 4 billion years ago, and none of them have destroyed the Earth.

But, if that is not what you are looking for; if the only thing that will satisfy you is some sort of "independent commission", well, I'm sorry, but then I can't help you, and I don't think anyone on this forum can. I suggest you contact the government of the European Union.

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One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

In the US, those independent inspections are done by the Nuclear Reglatory Commission, as well as the additional regulation of any industrial operation done by the EPA, OSHA, and local agencies. If you don't trust the NRC... well that debate gets too political for this forum.

Now, how do you know that similar things have not been done in European for CERN's operation of the LHC?

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At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

Actually, they did operate the LHC, it did create a black whole which immediately swallowed us up, and we instantly reappeared in a Bizzaro universe where the president of the United States...(insert political joke here that would get me banned).

ummm....what???

Top scientists wouldn't be surprised to see red dragons pop out of an experiment? I cannot believe that such a statement was made seriously.

(If all of the energy of one of these collisions was converted to mass, would it represent a visible amount of matter?)

Well, according to this reference

So the habitat would be consistent with CERN's facility.

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At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

AFAIK the resulting mass would be a subatomic particle, and therefore not easy visible.

Actually in one of the current colliders a few years ago, I think it was FEMILAB's, they have already made an micro miniature black hole.

It evaporated into Hawking radiation in a few dozen billionths of a second.

So what everyone is afraid of, an artificially made black hole, has already been done and been proven to be safe.

What you have here is a failure of the press and to check facts about a situation, thus causing undo fear. Anyone that believers the press, especially in the states, is deluding themselves. They are one of the more notorious organizations for leaving out facts they don't like, or are too lazy to research for facts, that we have.

If I had been at one of those hearings as a spectator, I would of laughed then pointed out rather rudely that it had already been done, so what's your boggle?

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http://worldsofothersuns.home.comcast.net/

Could you provide references? I'm not aware of any confirmed artificial creation of black holes. Though, I do vaguely remember some poorly written popular press stories that might have suggested otherwise.

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Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Actually this from the Rupee News:-
There was another site that said red dragons but it may have been blog entries.

I took the statement as meaning that a world devouring black hole would be even less likely than two red dragons appearing!

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Any day you wake up on "the right side of the dirt" is a good day.

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Agreed. To think that the good doctor seriously believes that dragons (red or otherwise) would appear is ludicrous.

The Lac Leman had me confused for a while because I didn't find the location. Until a search turned up that Lac Leman is the old French name for the second largest freshwater lake in Europe, namely Lake Geneva.

Synchrotron radiation ... water sphere admittedly a levitating machine built from crop circle design and using microwaves. I am a bit stuck here because I am not to use what Prophets have said in order to keep Celestial Mechanic happy. I know that crop circle technology is a no go in any science forum. I refuse to admit I am wrong on either my close encounter experience or out of body experience so it really starts narrowing the choices down. The unification idea I worked out for forces, gravity, time, aether, dark matter and energy can't be used because it is ATM.

No all of my objections are eliminated save one:-
When science gets into the ring with God for the 'Particle', no disrespect intended but I am not barracking for science.

Michael.

I'll see what I can dig up, but later tonight, at work right now.

__________________
There is no problem that cannot be solved by a suitable application of high explosives - US Army Demolitions School

I just saw Hayley's comet, she waved, Said "why you always running in place? Even the man in the moon disappeared, Somewhere in the stratosphere" - Shinedown

http://worldsofothersuns.home.comcast.net/