Did you post a thread in the ATM section? If so could you post a link, as I would like to read it, and if it's already been deleted could you send me a copy - to my BAUT mail?

Are you suggesting that we not build the LHC? and that we don't search for "the particle"? I think the risks have been adequately addressed, and while there is a small (probably very small) chance that something could go wrong that's part of science and life in general...

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~~~ Richard Feynman ~~~
It is imperative in science to doubt.
~~~ Richard Feynman ~~~
Common sense is not so common
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As Promised:

http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0501068

http://www.bnl.gov/RHIC/black_holes.htm

It appears that they have produced what they are calling black hole like effects, but are not black holes. More of something that is equivlent to a black hole due to the sudden decelaration durring the collision.

Basicaly the Thermal Radiation matches the exact amout of expected hawking radiation of a similar massed true black hole, and particals do not escape during the first few moments of the collision.

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I just saw Hayley's comet, she waved, Said "why you always running in place? Even the man in the moon disappeared, Somewhere in the stratosphere" - Shinedown

http://worldsofothersuns.home.comcast.net/

I have posted hundreds of pages in ATM but essentially the idea is what if the proton is a wormhole connected in time from beginning to end of the universe. That should save you hours of reading.

I left on a bad footing here and yes while I am all in favor of so much of what science has given to the world. I had decided not to post until I had something positive to say about the experiment at CERN.

So this is it:-
If Einstein's idea of wormholes is the correct view then in a couple of years every woman on the planet will have lost 10 to 20 kilos just by owning a set of spring registered scales.

Based on an idea a unifying hypothesis similar to Twistor Theory which indicates the solar system will soon pass through a large galactic wormhole. The gravitational change would be similar to Mercury being advanced through the perihelion of its orbit. Sure I do not wish to see CERN get drawn into the vortex of Lake Geneva but it would indicate the greatest potential window for planetary exploration for millions of years.

Instead of launching tens of tonnes the potential lift could be into the thousands of tonnes because rocket thrust would not be impaired. So yes if it finds the elusive particle and even if it is destroyed provided it doesn't damage the world it could herald the greatest advance humanity has ever had the opportunity of making.

Michael.

Since it's late, and I'm a week behind, I'll just ask one question.
Why do you think NMRI is now called simply MRI? Because the N is for "nuclear." [N]MRI has nothing to do with nuclear radiation; it's a technique that uses magnetic fields to jiggle the atomic nuclei that you are already made of so we can take pictures of your insides.

Thus my contention that the uninformed public is afraid of the word nuclear.

Fred

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Heh. Yes, for several years it was referred to as "NMR" (they didn't even bother with the "I" for imaging). I well remember when they dropped the "N" and added the "I".

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I should have been a bit more helpful spratleyj here is a link to my ATM.
It is not right for me to promote ideas other that science mainstream outside ATM so this is the best method I can think of. I hope it helps, cheers.
Michael.

ok, thanks for the link I'm not sure where to post this, but I wanted to let you'll know that starting tomorrow I'm going to be "offline" for about 10 days... so when you don't see me posting, don't assume that I've quite or lost interest

__________________
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.
~~~ Richard Feynman ~~~
It is imperative in science to doubt.
~~~ Richard Feynman ~~~
Common sense is not so common
~~~ Voltaire ~~~

I'm just sick this didn't get built:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superco...Super_Collider

LHC is just a consolation prize in comparison.

Ah, but the SSC was built in an alternate timeline. It spawned Universal destruction. Luckily however, time travel became possible at just the right time. They sent time travelers back in time to sabotage the SSC before it could power up.

Well, that's what one novel claimed

More seriously, I also wish it had been completed. It could have kept the U.S.A at the front lines of particle research. It was a massive undertaking though and I'm not sure they were ready for it. Design issues and cost overruns were plaguing the project. Still, it seemed silly to just up and abandon it after so much work was done.

Agreed! Not just as a Texan and an American, but as a science lover who mours the loss of an instrument that would have dwarfed the LHC!

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The other advantage of the SSC would have been that since it was an American instrument, that frivolous lawsuits in American courts, to stop it from destroying the Earth, could have gone forward!

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I guess you missed the memo.

Let me just say, you don't really think the TransTexas Corridor is all about highways and transportation, do you? Haven't you noticed that open area between the highways... the one they say is reserved for rail lines and "industrial pipelines"?

Trace out the path of the completed package, connecting all the planned corridors, and...

Well, 'nuff said. Don't want no frivilous lawsuits gettin' started.

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Jim,
Could you be a little more vague?

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T. Anderson

Looks to me like a tongue-in-cheek CT story.

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Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Thank you, Van Rijn.

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The July 19th issue of Science News had a big cover story on the LHC, including information about the detectors and specific experiments.

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I wonder if it would be possible to convert Large Handron into an asat weapon--with emitters above ground...

Wow. I found this article in Nature.

I am now very surprised there is still the head long rush to fire this machine up. The latest information is now in that the model for physics is wrong and the Higgs does not exist at roughly 170 GeV and that is confirmed by TeVatron a Fermilab particle accelerator.

What do you call a person who says perhaps we should take a closer look at what is happening now that there is something slightly amiss with the very basics of the science being used in a machine of such power?

CERN scientists gave an unequivocal guarantee that if anything was slightly amiss the project would stop until a proper solution could be found. Is this commitment to safety now going to be honored?

Sorry, where in the article does it say that the standard model was proven wrong? It says that the Higgs particle wasn't found at the levels that the Tevatron is capable of. That in no way proves that the model is wrong.

Oh, and why should you be supprised that the scientists are excited to start up the LHC? The scientists involved have been building this thing for over 2 decades. It's time to put this thing to work.


Please show where there is something slightly amiss with basic science? I didn't see any mention of this in the article.

Where in the article did anyone mention any safety concerns with the LHC? Just because Fermilab didn't find the Higgs particle doesn't mean that the LHC is dangerous. Poor reasoning all around, if you ask me.

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Your misplaced concerns are not interesting.

Meanwhile look at the pretty pictures. Boston.com does the LHC (August 1)

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Thanks for the link. I've been trying to post the same link, (saw it on Slashdot this morning), but couldn't get back on the forum. Time for a gremlin check on Bautforum perhaps?

Edit to add:
I love the computer room picture(about a third of the way down). I'd love to have that setup.

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Janitor: "Well, I don't know why you people seem to think this is magic. It's just this little chromium switch here ... [click] My, you people are SO superstitious ..."

Voice: "Well! My iron lung is working again ..."

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Microsoft is over if you want it.

The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

Very cool pictures. I notice one of the pictures are some emergency personnel, with the caption "French, Swiss and CERN firemen move rescue equipment through the LHC tunnel." How long till someone claims that this is proof of how dangerous (to the planet) the LHC is?

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All moderation in purple

Yeah, everybody knows that hadrons aren't flammable!

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Any day you wake up on "the right side of the dirt" is a good day.

T. Anderson

Fair comment but how about radio active?

I was looking at the diagram and there is an area marked dump. The waste gas from all the accelerators is collected and treated as high level nuclear waste isn't it? In America there is a problem with nuclear contamination of an old particle accelerator because there are some 11,000 tonnes of contamination to be disposed of.

This bit in quotes is my logic so you can skip it if you like.
That is the complex logic just for an explanation of the way I put things together so it is a take it or leave it kind of thing to explain why I ask the question. In short:-

Is there proper containment and permanent storage for the waste protons and ions used by particle accelerators or do they just get dumped back into the environment?

well, protons are tiny so a dump of waste protons will only be a very tiny pile even if there are loads of them, just keep them in a matchbox.

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Michael,

You are confusing particle accelerators with nuclear power plants. The hadrons that are collided are protons. Protons are hydrogen nuclei. any left over protons will snag an electron and become a hydrogen atom. No massive build-up of radioactive waste that has to be collected and disposed of!

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Any day you wake up on "the right side of the dirt" is a good day.

T. Anderson

ok so beside wasting tons of money, chewing up enough power to running a gaming machine for a week, Just what is the byproducts produced?

Teeny-tiny amounts of hydrogen.
Exabytes of data.
Possibly breakthroughs that would revolutionise our entire way of life.

And it will consume a lot more power than the biggest, baddest Voodoo Gaming PC. (Look up the difference between Power and Energy to see why the second clause of your post makes no sense whatsoever.)

The answer to that is that the more science has learned about the subatomic world the more it has learned how to make newer products and medications to attack cancer and other diseases.

Viewing the stars was seen as a waste of time and still is to some today. But astronomy gave science the tool of spectroscopy to analyze elements in the universe, including our atmosphere and in our labs, including particle accelerators. The study of X-rays both on the ground and in the universe has brought all the sciences together and we can now view viruses and vaccines entering cells and the behavior of gases in fuel injectors along with many other views that will open doors to cures and inventions. And the differences in the types of X-rays has taught us how our atmosphere protects us from harmful X-rays from outer space and how they differ from the ones created in the dentist's office which, in turn, differ from those at Fermilab and the LHC.

The higher the energies we can calculate, control and predict component capabilities accurately, the more we learn how to usher in new tools that can measure things far more accurately and bring us medicines with far less side effects and make better weather predictions along with the proper way to divert huge asteroids that may be coming right at us.