look i'm so sorry please except my humble apology,

but in my defence- some places Gas is not a liquid but a gas, and in some places Gas is a liquid not a gas, here cars that run on gas- well; run on gas, though even that is a liquid when under pressure. and in my working class ignorance I call electricity, power and here we have 240 volt power, and plug into power points. unless the lhc has some dilithium crystals I'm assuming it's gonna be plugged into the mains? Know how much 'power' an aluminum smelter uses? Alot, so will this be using as much as that?

Thank you Kaptain K,

What I am doing is looking at the Large Hadron Collider with the same pseudo science that I have used to describe what it would take for Niburu to actually work. Naturally the protons will take up with an electron and become hydrogen in standard particle physics I accept that.

The point although probably lost is if an alternate reality does exist to the standard model then the past and future positions of those protons would carry a damaging charge. Not a problem in a second by second per second reality. Not a problem in a world line and time line reality either really because by the same distorted application of the rules this wont be the reality and we wont be the people to experience the problems.

That is the reason I haven't bothered to do a Nancy Leider type crusade and lead people up mountains because there really isn't any point to it. Destruction of this time line/world line is the reason why it is only the people regarded as cranks sensitive enough to hear from an alternate reality that are making a fuss and that we as people at some point will simply cease to exist and not have to deal with the problem.

That is ultimately the problem with circular logic in that it becomes self defeating and so not a good enough reason to do like some Russian did a few months back leading people to a sheltered cave. The authorities were finally called in when the stench of the dead among the followers alerted reasonable people who rescued those still left alive. I have given it a lot of thought believe me and it simply isn't worth carrying on because, well because there is no good outcome.

Michael.

I appreciate the point and very valid in many cases but it isn't the answer to 'that' question. I was interested in the direct Waste or hazardous by-products from particle accelerates, I should have been more pacific. Your answer could include in-numerous products. this is something I know zero about. It was a genuine question on my part, I could have asked michael directly but I wanted to hear from all.

so Michael your saying there is no waste? no wonder I don't know anything about it

Lets talk the standard model. The protons become hydrogen and while they make particle detection possible they are not used up in the process. Because the particles themselves cause radiation the surrounding material in the particle accelerator can become radioactive and is the recognized waste product at the end of the run life of the machine. Standard nuclear waste.

The protons used in the life of a particle accelerator is a very small quantity and I was attempting to find out if there are processes to capture and contain them.

(Alright it may not be standard model here but the mass of the proton is about 100 times more than the quarks that go into making a proton. It is just me but if there is space within the atom that can store that energy introduced when being accelerated then it is such a small quantity that space required means that high level storage is not an unreasonable option).

The SSC site is still hanging around, http://www.hep.net/ssc/new/pictures.html

From what I remember reading, various portions of SSC are now located over at CERN, as part of the LHC. Stuff like Cryogenics plants and the like.

Back to the question of LHC at CERN.

One of two things will happen shortly after the beam is turned on and the first collision occurs. Higgs Boson will be proven to exist, the experiment, now a complete success will, will be shut down and thousands of scientists, technologists and technicians and support staff will become unemployed.
Or, someone will come running into the control room screaming, "It's gone, It's gone!", as it will have winked out of existence.

Apparently, Dan Brown author of "The DaVinci Code", also wrote a book entitled "Angels and Demons", which Hollywood is now converting into a movie. The studio doing the movie was in CERN a while ago, taking high resolution pictures of ATLAS before it and the rest of LHC was buttoned up for the cool-down. The pictures will serve to provide realistic pattern matching for the movies animations.

;-)

To the very original author of this thread, "Don't worry, be happy",
"Everything's gonna be all-right."

Really, if you are concerned about LHC, go to CERNs web site and read about the LHC. They have huge quantities of documents describing the science, the machine, the construction, the commissioning and more. I spent days reading and watching movies and looking at pictures and trying to wrap my head around it all. I am pumped and I am excited and for the past three years, LHC has been a daily look for me. Great science is around the corner.

Regards, rtt

Actually, I doubt both of those scenarios (sorry for being serious if you were joking). As I understand it, there is going to be a fairly long period of time after start-up where they are shaking everything down. And even once they get into the meat of the experiments, they have to run many multiple runs to get enough data, and the data crunching can take months. And the search for the Higgs Boson isn't the only work they are doing.

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That is not the way particle physics works. They must wait until after over a billion collisions occur and they must get predicted results 99.999% of the time. They cannot publish a discovery until that happens. When they get predicted results even 68% of the time they only can list it as a "finding". They are looking for many other things aside from the Higgs.

Yes, it was my intent to be humorous and also to over simplify the whole effort.

As I said in my note, I did spend days reading, looking at pictures, movies and animations, so I am also aware that the machine will be hosting a number of different experiments. In fact, two of the experiments may prove to be useful in discovering Higgs Boson in addition to other things.

The amount of data to crunch will in fact be enormous. You suggest months, it could stretch into years. It is possible that they will end up using a cloud to process the large data sets, similar to the process used by SETI.

I'll bet though, that if I were a Nuclear Physicist, sitting on the edge of my seat, with baited breath, waiting for an announcement from the folks at CERN, well, I'd want to hear about Higss Boson first.

rtt

Mostly physicists are busy baby sitting the beamline and reading outputs. If one feather touches the floor near the beamline, it will knock the beam off target and things will shut down. Most of the equipment is that delicate. Even professional astronomers cannot touch their telescopes at many observatories because the IR radiation from their bodies will upset the scope. Scientists move the scopes robotically for them.

Yet there are romantics among them as well as the pedantic type and often some are both.
Recently a British psychologist, Rita Frith, was quoted in the June 3 article of "Current Biology":

"Dr. Frankenstein is so incredibly courageous and ambitious as to want to find the secret of life. He works very hard and with great imagination, and he tragically fails...Sherlock Holmes is the opposite of romantic, and he never fails. He shows the dash of autism that may be as vital for the genius detective as it is for the genius scientist...The deeply romantic and the obsessively pedantic are both part of my image of a scientific hero".

I plucked that quote from Science News. My familiarity with particle physics comes from the study of the subject as a hobby and having physicists that have worked at Fermilab and Argonne in my astronomy club. We have been fortunate to take tours right down to the beamline at Argonne and have toured and listened to lectures at Fermilab.

http://www.bio.aps.anl.gov/~dgore/

I would think that the discovery of super particles will bring as much excitement as the Higgs. It is the surprises that will be interesting.

CERN press release: CERN announces start-up date for LHC

Remember: Shop 01101001, Inc. for all your tin-foil hat needs. Buy in bulk and save! It's cheaper by the ton!

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0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 ...

Hey! That's my sister's birthday! The sister I like, even.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

And thus it would be so unfair if CERN destroyed the world on that date.

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One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

Right. Now, if it were the day before (which is the birthday of the sister I don't like), that would be different!

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Actually, it might make for a nice practical joke, if you could work it out with CERN.

Scene: Sister's birthday party. Birthday person about to blow out candles. Singing of "Happy Birthday". Birthday sister takes big breath, blows and <PLANET BLOWS UP!>.

Ha, ha, ha.

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One Earth, One Sky - IYA 2009
All moderation in purple

There's a "pull my finger!" joke in there somewhere. I think I'll stay away from it.

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Meet the OOONG TOE.

One problem that has not been addressed with any particle accelerator is the breaking of the laws of physics with matter. I have placed this question on a couple of forums and no reply. Science can not account for the matter it accelerates.

Quantum science ‘assumes’ no time for particles because it makes a mess of the mathematics. But particle accelerators use real matter to ‘create’ particles. So even though a proton is very small it is still matter and not a particle. First scientists ‘assume’ the protons used gain mass due to the velocity (near light speed) of over 200 times the mass of a proton. So they are happy to use general relativity to explain the gain of mass.

But if you took a simple piece of paper it would be a huge distance for a proton to travel through. Using the same Laws of same points of time the proton that enters that page width is not the same proton that leaves the page width. In order for it to be the same proton time must be allowed into the mix of equations to describe the movement of the proton around the particle accelerator.

Just because something appears to work does not mean we know why it is working. Symmetry breaking could actually be reality bending.

Within a year this particle accelerator will be five to seven times more powerful than anything ever built on earth. There is no explanation for why any particle accelerator works apart from the fact that they do.

Even more strange is in line with the increased rate of universe expansion there is an increased rate of performance being delivered from the older particle accelerators. In short the science community is dabbling in the unknown and that unknown might be the very fabric of time and space.



Recap:-
There is something FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG with the scientific communities understanding of matter. I will repeat here what I have said on other forums
"YOU ARE ALL GOING TO DIE !!!"

Don't project your own ignorance on others.
Of course we shall all die; 200 years from now nobody who is alive today will be alive then.

To quote Arthur Dent

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So; any disaster will be 5 to 7 times worse than any other particle accelerator disaster. Even if the effects are squared, the dangers will be 50 times worse.
So; what would that be? What is PA equivalent of critical mass? I'm sure the scientists know this. Even a fission bomb mass, energy and consumption was predictable and calculable within some margin.

I'm not sure if that way of thinking is scientifically sound, but it gives me a comfort.

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Sorry, that's just plain wrong.

Time is just as fundamental to quantum theories as to relativity, and some quantum effects (eg. neutron decay) can be used to demonstrate the time dilation effects from relativity (fast moving neutrons decay slower in a way that is consistent with GR).

Looks like you're using a non-standard definition of the word particle, by the standard definition it is a particle.

There is something FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG with your understanding of matter and particles and quantum physics and....

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In addition to other people's questions, please offer some proof of this claim.
Might an improvement in performance of older accelerators (if such an improvment exists) come from upgrades made to them?

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What question did you ask? All I see here is an unproven claim. And please show any documentation that shows particle accelerators are breaking the laws of physics.

Again, please show some evidence for this claim.

I find that hard to believe. More cites need I think.

Why can't a particle have mass?

You seem to use the word assume a lot. You do realize that scientists have been using particle accelerators for over half a century?

The scientists at CERN aren't trying to put particles though paper. Of course, you could show what equations you're trying to use to match a piece of paper to a head on particle collision.

Ah, I get it now. You claim above that scientists don't use time in their calculations, and set up a false scenario showing that the scientists are wrong. Sloppy science.

This has to be the most absurd comment yet. As I mentioned above, scientists have been building accelerators for over 50 years. Particle accelerators didn't just pop up from nowhere, they were designed and built with a specific purpose. And what would be the point of building something if you have no idea what it's capable of doing?

I think this might be a new definition for non sequitur.

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Wow, if this were really true, why did we build the LHC? Why not just wait for the inevitable performance increase?

At any rate, I too would appreciate a real citation from a real journal (not Apeiron or Galilean Electrodynamics or the Journal of Theoretics) on this one.

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The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

Sure; it applies to everything. When I bought my SUV, it sat 5 and could tow 6000 lbs. With performance upgrades over the years, I've been able to get that to seat 35 and tow 42,000 lbs.

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Sure, now it looks like this.

This are many possible upgrades one might make to an accelerator: new detectors, improved magnets, better computing power.

A few moments of googling found this:
And this
And this

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Thank you to all of the good members of BAUT who have taken the time to analyze the situation and answer me on this question and especially all the references to improvements over the years. Much appreciated.

Michael

Hey BAUT forum, just wanted to say thank you to everyone on here. I've heard all these fears about 2012 and when I came here they were completly debunked and I was able to sleep again at night.


I just wanted to ask on the matter of the LHC. (sorry, I know this has already been answered but I'm sure it'll warm some of your hearts to tell me again and put my fears to rest :P ). So, the things that they plan to recreate in the LHC (sorry for my poor scientific language, I'm only in college and physics is not a forte of mine) have been recreated within our atmopshere since the Earth had an atmosphere, and that as of yet, these reactions have not yielded black holes, or strange matter or any other kind of matter that's going to gobble up our world?


And another question, why does the media insist on trying to exasperate the situation and make the public fear this wonderful machine?

Yes, there are ultra-high energy cosmic rays that have energies far far higher than the LHC will ever be able to produce. In fact its beyond any accelerator that can be built on Earth without major new technology because the planet simply isn't big enough to build one that powerful on.
Because its sells papers/magazines and gets viewers which means that the various media companies make more money.

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The alternatives are that (a) the world is destroyed or that (b) in a few years researchers announce that in order to resolve the riddles unveiled by the LHC more funding is required to build a larger accelerator.