I have a prediction, although not about the science of LHC: some people suffering from mental health problems, the sort of paranoid HB and general conspiracy believers, will start to make claims, like the moon has changed orbit/colour/shape, the sky is darker, they are starting to feel weird.

what's the chances of an ordinary earthquake going off, in the next few weeks? Guess what they'll claim?

And if something like this turns up someplace..?

http://supernet.files.wordpress.com/...-guatemala.jpg

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The dog, the dog, he's at it again!

That is crazy.

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-The Wolf
http://www.ryanmercer.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/ryanmercer317
http://www.pleasegodhelpme.org

Isn't it, though? I first thought it's a photoshop job but apparently they really do get "megapotholes" like that over in the limestone regions of Guatemala.

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The dog, the dog, he's at it again!

<martian>

Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom!

</martian>

Congratulations on a successful test to the many scientists, engineers, fundraisers, politicians and supporters who made this possible.

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"People do not want immortality... They simply do not want to die... They want to feel the ground beneath their feet, see the clouds overhead, love other people, be with them, and think. Nothing more. Everything that has been said beyond that is a lie." - Ijon Tichy

Van Rijn,
I should have clarified it. Everyone is entitled to have and speak their opinions. And it's my opinion that a scientist acting in his role as scientist should address the matter at hand and not digress into a tirade. He was acting as a spokesman for CERN, he was not addressing a school board as a parent opposed to the teaching of intelligent design to his children or sitting around the dinner table with his wife etc. So yes it's about how best to deliver a message.

OOh new Fodder from the charming lads at CERN who don't know when to keep quiet!
James Gillies, chief spokesman for CERN.
Gillies told the AP that the most dangerous thing that could happen would be if a beam at full power were to go out of control, and that would only damage the accelerator itself and burrow into the rock around the tunnel.

"burrow into the rock around the tunnel"!! that's priceless.

A: It won't! At the temperatures we generate in the collisions at LHC, even protons and neutrons don't survive, never mind atoms and molecules. (BC)

That one's for you Warren. These guys are absolutely priceless, I was just disappointed he didn't say something like "just the same as a gopher digging up your garden".

http://apnews.excite.com/article/200...D933TB700.html

These things are called cenotes in Mexico, and when they fill with water they are used as wells.

(removed duplicate post)

You can find more photos of these things if you do a Google image search for:

Guatemala Sinkhole

These things are common in Yucatan in Mexico.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenote

Well, Pippin, why don't you explain what will happen if the proton stream hits rock? Just saying it won't and saying that stuff is hot just doesn't seem to cut it...

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" -- Charles Darwin
"Your right to hold an opinion is not being contested. Your expectation that it be taken seriously is." -- Jason Thompson
Meet the OOONG TOE.

I already commented on the Posts Pippen has been making and the clear stance. He's been claiming to be a supporter just playing "Devils Advocate." And that was when I realized that Pippen was a Full Fledged Doomssayer.

It's a case of making a mountain out of a molehill to give an ego boast to the doomssayer.


Pippen: Here is one for you to think about.

The GM for Saab is quoted to say, "The Saab 950 is a safe car. About the only real danger is if the vehicle is crushed under a Mack Truck."
Pippen: "Hoo hoo! That's priceless!! I'm surprised he didn't compare it to an angry kid stomping on his Tonka truck!"

Funny I thought it was CERN's job to describe what would happen. I was just having a laugh about it "burrowing" when that really means destroying all atoms and molecules in its path. I do trust them enough to expect a safety cut off switch to trigger, or that any misalignment in of itself shuts down the ion flow. My personal non-scientific expectation would be that at worst it would travel a few centimeters. Even at full strength there aren't that many ions in use in comparison to the atoms of the surrounding rock and comparable density. So even a significant time before shut off, say the emergency shut off isn't triggered and one of the scientists has to kill it manually, of 5 seconds or so maximum, shouldn't pose any serious danger to the public or planet. If it was truly a concern then I don't think we'd be hearing all about the dangers mBH's and stranglets.
Or maybe I should move this to the conspiracy theory discussions!
mBHs and stranglet dangers are just an easily debunked distraction to prevent us learning they could cut a hole through the planet!!!

No, Pippin. If you find it necessary to be flippant and ridicule the scientists involved, it becomes your burden to show us why they deserve said ridicule.

So how did you think the word was intended? That we should imagine a column of marching protons with axes slung over their shoulders? Or perhaps just as 'causing damage to the rock'?

To stop what ion flow? I remind you that the packets circle the entire ring thousands of times per second.

How many protons? How much energy? How much impact can that have on rock?

What happens if there is no emergency shutoff available or if it fails, and the manual shutoff fails too?

Ah. So that is what you expect. Can you explain how that would work? How long would it take?

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" -- Charles Darwin
"Your right to hold an opinion is not being contested. Your expectation that it be taken seriously is." -- Jason Thompson
Meet the OOONG TOE.

LHC CLAIMS IT'S FIRST DEATH

Well, not quite. Actually it's a combination of religious fear and media hype.

Indian girl commits suicide over 'Big Bang' fear

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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)

I really Crossed some Lines and over-stepped some boundaries earlier when I chewed out Pippen and Warren Platts.

After having made the posts, I contemplated deleting them on the thought that it may attract Mod attention. I decided I really couldn't do that.
Because I was disgusted with the behavior and it Needed telling off.


And this is Why!

Warren Platts and Pippen, It is People Like YOU, spreading your misconceived and misguided fears in some kind of backwards 'hero complex' that results in Real Life Tragedy like this one.
This is Reality Now.

I hope you're very proud of yourselves for adopting the mentality that led to this event. Because this is exactly the kind of thing that caused me to be so disgusted.

Ugh... I'm thoroughly furious and signing out of BAUT until I can get a grip....

Ouch. Despite what Dr Cox said about the U.S. this sounds worse. Now maybe I don't read the "right" fake newspapers or watch the right fake news shows, but I haven't seen too much of the "LHC will destroy us" nonsense in the U.S.

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The Leif Ericson Cruiser

For anyone interested, here is an article that explains what could happen if the particle beam strays off course and the safety equipment installed to protect the LHC from said events.

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"The universe is driven by the complex interaction between three ingredients: matter, energy, and enlightened self-interest." - G'Kar

The problem with posting/blogging is that you folks on the other end can't see me laughing when I type some of this stuff. Then you make a point of quoting me out of context, deleting my conspiracy theory comment while leaving in the "cut a hole through the planet". I went out of my way to comment that I considered it a non-issue safety wise. I say my "non-scientific expectation", and you demand the number of protons and energy levels. If CERN can make jackass statements without providing any supporting data , then I should at least be able to make fun of them.

Why I made fun of burrowing: I have groundhogs in my backyard, my computer is next to the window. All I could think about was their mosquitos(which Prof. Cox again cited) and related it in my head to the groundhog's holes I can see from where I am typing right now. Unfortunately that image doesn't come across to the rest of you through the internet.

Re: "LHC Claims first death"

A few thoughts ('caus I'm sure y'all are just dieing to hear my opinion ):

1) I was waiting for these kind of reports. Hoped they wouldn't come, but here's one. Hopefully it'll be the only one.

2) Why would anyone think "Everyone's going to die! Alas! I must kill myself!"...if you're afraid that you're going to die, you avoid it by...dieing?

3) Anyone, such as this girl, who would do that had some other issues going on to begin with.

4) I, for some reason, get the distinct sense that the girl's family is making excuses for her actions. Suicide is an ugly thing...and is something that generates...interesting emotions from the family members. Embarassment is one of them. Sort of a mix of guilt, and feeling of reflection on yourself. Additionally, anyone I've ever met from India comes from a very family-centric, proud culture (pride/family image is very important. many cultures are like this, I'm not picking on India). So instead of admitting family problems...lets blame the media and this new scarey laser thing. That's just the impression I got.

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I'm like one of those idiot savants...well, except for the savant part.
"In order to increase awareness of the homeless, security have been given binoculars."

Thanks for the post Metricyard, that's a great example about what I mean concerning their statements.
“In a bad accident, the beam could go off course and drill a hole through one or two magnets,” says Schmidt. While this would not destroy the LHC, it would still require time and money for repair."
"Gillies told the AP that the most dangerous thing that could happen would be if a beam at full power were to go out of control, and that would only damage the accelerator itself and burrow into the rock around the tunnel."
2 CERN scientists describing the same event with 2 different outcomes. Neither of which I consider a danger to the public.
The difference is I am posting on a private forum, CERN is releasing public statements to the world. Posters on this forum are demanding scientific accountability from me, but not from CERN?
And Neverfly if I was fear mongering I'd mention that "These include 1232 dipole magnets of 15 m length" in relation to "drill a hole through one or two magnets"
Oh wait I did just mention it, and cite direct CERN sources without any of my own hypothetical suppositions, darn me for fear mongering!!!
Well on the plus side at least you can make fun of me for thinking it would only go a few centimeters into the rock. Wow I am an idiot.

Speaking as one such scientist (but not a particle physicist), it is entirely proper for a scientist to state opinions or tentative conclusions, as long as they are represented as such.

Science never, EVER deals in "absolute fact". There is no absolute fact in science, everything can always be changed by new data.

Your comment is perilously close to "scientists should never say anything", therefore.

my instantaneous reaction....

Sorry that it happened.

As the family live in Bhopal, she was most likely born and grew up in Bhopal.

People of Bhopal are deeply affected by the Union Carbide explosion of 1984. This was / is not an insignificant matter in industrial history. According to Wiki, at least 100 k people have permanent injury of some kind.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster

So traumatic misadventures / accidents of this kind are probably ingrained into the locals' psyche. Not just in Bhopal, but elsewhere too. Wherever accidents happen. Look at the folk in Chernobyl.

If I were you, please, I wouldn't be judgemental about the family's attitude. They most likely suffered physical and psychological trauma, you and I couldn't even dream of, at our wildest. And now, for whatever reason, they have lost a daughter as well.

Please have a rethink, Fazor.

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clear skies

If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe. CARL SAGAN

Mak: Pass the pepperoni please.
Fazor: "Hail, Bautainia! We pledge our hearts to thee! Science and woo, some babbling too, and astron-oh-meee!"
slang: And it made ash out of yew and tree.

No need for us to demand accountability from CERN, they are required to show all possible dangerous events that could happen, no matter how far fetched the scenario. It's not like CERN was caught in some big conspiracy hiding information, they're the ones who brought up the micro black hole, strangelets, etc in their safety briefings in the first place.

If they hadn't mentioned the black holes and strangelets and whatever spooky thing that might happen, then they probably would have been sued for not including it in their safety report.

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"The universe is driven by the complex interaction between three ingredients: matter, energy, and enlightened self-interest." - G'Kar

I'm not being judgmental. Everything I described is a normal family reaction to suicide. I never said the feelings of guilt, or the feeling that you might have a family problem were warented...just that they are oft there.

If you've ever known a family that has gone through a suicide, you've most likely seen what I am talking about.

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I'm like one of those idiot savants...well, except for the savant part.
"In order to increase awareness of the homeless, security have been given binoculars."

Quite true, but have you seen the report they have provided to the governments in question? All we are allowed to see and read are the reports provided to the public. I'm still not griping about the actual safety of their experiments, I'm contrasting the statements they release.
Worst case publicly known scenarios as described by CERN themselves.
The article from your post is from 2007.
a hole is drilled into 1-2 magnets. (inside the experimental area)
Statement to the AP from my post is from this week, 2008.
burrow into the rock around the tunnel. (outside the experimental area)

The French and Swiss governments aren't idiots, I am sure if there was something horrible in the private(top-secret whatever) safety statement to their Science Ministers then the experiments would not happen. There's possibly something in that report along the line of an explosion underground contaminating the lab site with radioactivity and necessitating the evacuation of the village above it. France has several Nuclear reactors and thus their government would be comfortable with that as a worst case, while still not wishing it to be released publicly to prevent "fear-mongering"

Can anyone show that there are in fact "top secret whatever safety statements"?

Aren't you? Oh!

Feeling embarrassment, when one's child has committed suicide, is normal, is it? I wouldn't have thought that the emotion of embarrassment came into it. The deep trauma suffered would take care of this superficiality, if it existed, even fleetingly, in the first place.


I already mentioned, that may be her environment being 'Bhopal', it's possible that that affected her in many respects.


Mr Biharilal, doesn't come across in the article as embarrassed or blaming anything/anyone.

I do not personally know of any family who have their child or another family member, lost in such a way. So maybe I don't know what you are talking about. All I know is that I have lived long enough to appreciate their stoicism / empathise with the families/people who are exposed to such sadness.

Good day to you.

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clear skies

If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe. CARL SAGAN

Mak: Pass the pepperoni please.
Fazor: "Hail, Bautainia! We pledge our hearts to thee! Science and woo, some babbling too, and astron-oh-meee!"
slang: And it made ash out of yew and tree.

I think you're not understanding what I'm talking about. Additionally, I was unaware of the local industrial tragedy you mentioned, which also makes sense. Regardless, I do not wish to de-rail the CERN/LHC discussion any further, but am happy to continue via PM if you wish. Lastly, I want to be clear that I did not mean any disrespect or lack of sympathy for the family, only that I'm not totally convinced the suicide was caused 100% by news of the LHC.

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I'm like one of those idiot savants...well, except for the savant part.
"In order to increase awareness of the homeless, security have been given binoculars."

Fazor, I'm in total agreement with you here on your earlier summation.

Media Hype and intentional Dis-Information on the LHC, were the cause of this incident (if it wasn't just being used as an excuse).

Although I'm all for free speech in media, this is one of the reasons I also agree with accountability in Media. If a person yells fire in a movie theater, its considered a crime (Insiting to Riot or Insiting to Harm)

Likewise if the Media yells 'Doomsday' and people start panicing because of it. Then the media organizations -also- need to be help accountable criminally. This is a Prime example of why.

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There is no problem that cannot be solved by a suitable application of high explosives - US Army Demolitions School

I just saw Hayley's comet, she waved, Said "why you always running in place? Even the man in the moon disappeared, Somewhere in the stratosphere" - Shinedown

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