Yeah, I know all about Godwin's Law. I chose the Hitler example on purpose. Get it?

Why did you post this twice?

I think he's admitting he lost the argument.

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

People usually post twice when there's a slow response time on the BAUT server or they think the post was lost.

Fixed it for you.

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" -- Charles Darwin
"Your right to hold an opinion is not being contested. Your expectation that it be taken seriously is." -- Jason Thompson
Meet the OOONG TOE.

"Uhh.. Excuse me!

You mean a White Hole!"

Will clicking that link give me nightmares?

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I want to go back to the moon.
I don't care which rocket you use, whichever one you pick, I'll like it, I swear.
"If you think the LHC will create black holes, you might as well believe Hobbits are at the bottom of your garden."- Dr. Mike Inglis
Rovers forever! - ToSeek

Dude, you don't understand probability. There's a big difference between 1 in a million and NONZERO.

Honey, clicking on this thread will give you nightmares!

When I originally asked, "Are you absolutely sure that if you got your wish and they instead constructed the LHC on Pluto you wouldn't be in more danger?", I actually had in mind the non-zero probability that you are actually posting from Pluto. Are you 100% certain that you're not?

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There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand ternary, those who don't, and those waiting for a bus.
If logic doesn't work, then surely it does.

That would explain a LOT.

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I'm not 100% certain that there's not an evil demon who is as clever and deceitful as he is powerful, who has directed his entire effort to misleading me about everything. . . .

Oh BROTHER!
Are you Now claiming that the LHC has a 1 in a Million chance of destroying the world!?!
WAY OFF.

Odds would be about 1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

I determined these odds according to cosmological history and ignored whether or not Hawking Radiation is valid.
Knowns only without factoring in theory.
So the odds improve greatly in our favor if Hawking is right.

Big Whoop.

These are MUCH better odds than those of the UNIVERSE destroying us by following its course of nature.

More Fear Mongering

I can't keep up here...

Are you blaming your poor science on:

a) Teleology/metaphysical belief
b) Godwinning yourself / Making a fake argument for humor value
c) A demon

?

I'm confused as to which it is exactly.

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Allow me to give you a free lesson in philosophy. YWIA

a) Teleology is not a metaphysical theory, nor is it a school of philosophy. It is a mode of scientific explanation most often employed in biology and psychology. The classic references are to be found in the writings of Braithwaite, Ernst Nagel, Charles Taylor, Larry Wright, Mayr, Dobzhansky, Neander, Millikan, and Dennett.

b) Accusations of "Godwinning" are a version of the genetic fallacy. Just because Hitler was evil, does it follow that Volkswagon Beatles are also evil--Hitler first proposed building them after all?

c) The evil demon was a philosophical hypothetical invented by DesCartes in order to demonstate that one cannot be certain about anything. Similarly, worzel says it's not 100% certain that I'm writing all this from my condo on Pluto. That's true, but it's trivially true. To argue that the probability of danger from the LHC is in the same category of negligibly small probabilities is a bait-and-switch fallacy that goes like this: see, there's a nonzero chance that a microwave oven will destroy the planet, yet we don't worry about microwave ovens, therefore we shouldn't worry about the safety of the LHC. The fallacy is exposed when some other proposition is substituted: see, there's a nonzero chance that a microwave oven will destroy the planet, yet we don't worry about microwave ovens, therefore we shouldn't worry about the safety of commercial airliners.

Now we're getting somewhere!


which is the amount we should be willing to spend in order to prevent the destruction of the planet. Therefore, turning the LHC into a mushroom farm would be the cheapest insurance anyone ever bought! What a deal!

Ok mate you have a real cob on there dont you!! oh deary me. and the post about anti matter?? whats all that about?? Calm down buddy!! The LHC may create micro black holes. if it does we are relying on hawking radiation which has not been observed at all. Did I just make that up on the spot?? Or am I correct with that assumption? Thats my concern. It's not made up out of thin air it is a valid concern and it is my worry. I think it is valid. Instead I get off topic rambling from you about imersing myself in anti matter and blowing up like a balloon. I'm not conducting experiments on myself to cause a very small chance of myself blowing up like a balloon where as the LHC IS conducting experients with a VERY (yes I amdit TINY) small chance to cause our planet some damage. Seriously I don't quite get what you are getting at with all that anti matter stuff though?? I'm sure you will tell me soon enough. What I don't get is people comparing it with everyday things though? Before we talk about it happening high in the earths atmosphere which I already know about this is a bit different. You have two beams head on colliding here with a good chance of being caught in earths gravitational field.

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"Attack the idea, not the person" Posted by a Moderator.
Useful words around here indeed!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleology
What are you going on about now?
The odds of the LHC destroying the Earth are essentially ZERO and you are trying to spout your nonsensical GUESS about how much MONEY the planet is worth.
What post about anti-matter?
Does Warren Platts also need to calm down with his size seven fonts?
Even if the LHC does create a MBH, we are not Reliant on Hawking Radiation to get rid of it. That's just a bonus. Add to that that so far, Hawking radiation seems consistent. It's not unsupported- just not yet "proven."
Not Really.
I was talking about odds. Pay attention.
If you would pay attention to what people are telling you, then you would understand it.
You clearly have not been paying attention though because what I said was as simplistic as it gets.
True, because the odds are GREATLY less than any everday thing. Which is why I compared it to the descriptions you were whining about not understanding above.
Wrong. It doesn't make a difference.

The Earths atmosphere is held Down By Gravity.

Whether you're in the Ionosphere or on the ground, you will STILL be pulled to Earth by it's gravity.
The planet is quite large. It has a LOT of mass.

You are trying to differentiate the LHC from Nature. It is not different.
It's not separate.
Can the LHC break the laws of physics?
Can it operate outside of nature?
No.
It cannot.
What the LHC is doing is a FRACTION of what nature does to us All The Time.

And you're scared of it.

Ok then mate im open minded. What would stop a micro black hole eating earth slowly if hawking radiation failed?? things like blowing up like a balloon have nothing to do with it. its side stepping the subject. Moaning about my concerns doesnt really help your cause. I know you love to shout down people wirth a different view but there is another way. You could of responded to my post about hawking radiation in a nicer clamer way. Then I could of said "oh yes I'm wrong" I'm not going to argue still more if I'm given some nice facts. I think your too used to arguing with many of the woo woo's who just wont listen. I WILL listen. I just dont take kindly to polite insults.

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"Attack the idea, not the person" Posted by a Moderator.
Useful words around here indeed!!

All of your questions have been responded to repeatedly.
NOW you are claiming you just wanna know and understand and paint me as the bad guy because I'm frustrated with the non acceptance of the answers.

Whatever.

A MBH lacks the mass to gather up other materials. I used the analogy a while ago: Imagine you are in a spacecraft moving in a straight line through the Asteroid belt. Your task is to hit as many of them as you can. Do you think you can even hit one?
Getting over your misconceptions first is crucial to you understanding the hows and whys.
An MBH would be hard pressed to gather material.

Well, doomsayers aren't as scary as ghost faces to me. I'm weird like that. Pod People and vampires in the movies scare me much more than terrorists do.

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I want to go back to the moon.
I don't care which rocket you use, whichever one you pick, I'll like it, I swear.
"If you think the LHC will create black holes, you might as well believe Hobbits are at the bottom of your garden."- Dr. Mike Inglis
Rovers forever! - ToSeek

What part of "Jumping on the Doomssayer bandwagon" is so hard to understand?
Seriously?
Warren Platts seems to be the Wagon Driver in this thread...

Shouting in size 7 font to "lurkers" to write their congressmen and beg to shut down the LHC...

I'm not shouting people down Dirty G- although they deserve it.

I'm being hard nosed with Willfully chosen ignorance.

I have no respect for it whatsoever. If you don't like that- Tough. Too bad.
I do not have to respect willfully chosen ignorance to please you.

The argument that the LHC is gonna destroy the world is along the same lines as Nibiru and Planet X and TU 24 and all that other utter BUNK.

One poor girl actually killed herself because of the Hyped Up Fear Mongering.
And I'm TIRED of people trying to inspire FEAR with their Ignorance to give themselves some kind of ego boost.

Yeah- The Worlds Scientists are Risking All Life an Earth.


SUUUUUUURRREEE....



And I'm Santa Clause!

Sanna Cause, can I have a pony?

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but in this analogy there is a chance i could hit one! plus with lhc involved you could be talking a heck of a lot of mbh's not just one and yes I am painting you as the bad guy as your full of as many nicely worded insults you can think of im talking about a proper argument about mbh creation. you on the other hand are talking about me deserving a good shouting down though.

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"Attack the idea, not the person" Posted by a Moderator.
Useful words around here indeed!!

Two possible reasons for the universe surviving to this point if Hawking radiation doesn't exist: first, it might very easily just be impossible for black holes to form from these collisions, and second, the black holes will be a tiny fraction of the size of a proton (as in, a trillionth of the radius of the proton may be overestimating it by a factor of a billion), making it extremely unlikely for them to absorb anything. Gravity is very weak...the MBH will have to absorb two electrons before it has a chance of approaching the nucleus of an atom, and it will then only interact by gravity...which is so weak it would pass through the electron shells of atoms without disturbing them at all, and is likely to pass through individual protons without absorbing them.

It would also have to avoid any interactions that give it enough velocity to escape Earth's gravity. It would not take much energy for that to happen, and considering the fact that the first time it absorbs a proton it will be a positively charged particle in the immediate vicinity of a now very unstable nucleus, it seems quite likely for it to occur.

But regardless of whether either of these is correct or whether Hawking radiation exists or any error whatsoever in our theories, the LHC is known to be safe because identical and far more energetic collisions occur constantly all throughout the universe. "We're still here" is not trite or refusing to take it seriously, it is an accurate statement. No matter how wrong our theories are, if the LHC were capable of posing a danger, we wouldn't be here.

thankyou for the calm and very nicely worded response. im more at ease now. thankyou.

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"Attack the idea, not the person" Posted by a Moderator.
Useful words around here indeed!!

After 42 pages?!

And you wonder why you're painting me as A Big ol' meanie?

SHEESH!!!

Politely as possible in the nicest terms I find you quite insulting generally. I think you find this person who killed themselves as fuel for your anger at myself and Warren. Whilst this is unfortunate I think you should leave emotion like that away from the forum. I do hope you do not take such an attitude to everybody you do not agree with. I was away for about 30 of those pages raising my son. Maybe even more. So sorry I did not catch up. I find an hour when he is sleeping to be very nice and I'm hardly going to spend all of it reading the last 30 or so pages.

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"Attack the idea, not the person" Posted by a Moderator.
Useful words around here indeed!!

Agree with?
Reality is reality Dirty G.

There IS such a thing as right and wrong.

This issue is not even about agree or disagree. It's about the reality- and those that choose to ignore it.

You cannot claim that I'm an insulting monster when I get Fed Up with behavior like that which has been demonstrated in this thread.

i do claim that you use insults as much as possible. Comparing me to people who cause others to commit suicide is VERY insulting. I'm not ignoring it im asking valid questions which you react to in very frustrated and it sems underlying angry way instead of meeting the questions and worries head on.

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"Attack the idea, not the person" Posted by a Moderator.
Useful words around here indeed!!