I'm getting tired of arguing with you about eachothers character here.

Dirty G.

If a person has concerns about Nibiru- Planet X- TU 24 etc...

I answer them politely.

If I seem LESS polite 42 pages later, do NOT jump on my back about it.

If you can sit here typing new responses, questions and argue with me- then you can go back through the thread and read it just as easily.

I will jump on your back about the way you conduct yourself saying im like people who cause others to commit suicide. You want me to agree with you about that?? I do not have time to read the whole 42 pages. I have already told you that.

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"Attack the idea, not the person" Posted by a Moderator.
Useful words around here indeed!!

You admit, you haven't understood many of my posts.

Secondly, I referred to Warren Platts in that regard- which I stand by my commentary on that.
What I said to YOU was about Jumping On The Doomssayer Bandwagon.

Try understanding the few posts that you do read.

Taking a break from you now...

You did not specifically single out warren. You singled out people like him which includes me. I started the thread so if anything he juped on my band wagon. No i do not understand your posts as you talk about a lot of off topic things. Including the poor death of a girl and Anti matter emersion of myself to make you feel more safe?? You just want to insult me as much as you can. Are you surprised I pretty much am hacked off with your attitude which stinks. The your implying in a polite way im not too clever as in "try to understand the few posts I do read" The posts I do read just ooze sarcasm and contempt. Nothing worth even reading. Im pretty much going to ignore future posts by you. Go ahead and shout me down and insult me in a way you can get away with it around here.This has turned into a personal slanging match just beacuse I have taken exception to your attitude. HOW DARE I FEEL THAT WAY AGAINST NEVERFLY.

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"Attack the idea, not the person" Posted by a Moderator.
Useful words around here indeed!!

If you don't understand my posts- how can you claim I'm insulting you?

The Immerse yourself in Anti-matter thing was a deomonstration about how ridiculous the claim is that the LHC is a threat.

Dirty
G
If
You do not
Understand it
Maybe you need to THINK about it instead of complaining if I'm
FED
UP
with the Nonsense in this thread after 42 pages which you claim you don't want to bother reading.

And me saying you need to THINK is not an insult. I did not ever say anything that was extremely complicated.

I understand the posts I just dont understand what they have to do with LHC at times. Its mainly you whining that your fed up about it. If your fed up go to another thread. Instead your posts are nothing like what the last post I had from somebody which nicely expalined it to me. It was short and to the point. Instead I get sarcasm from you. I thought you were taking a break

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"Attack the idea, not the person" Posted by a Moderator.
Useful words around here indeed!!

I was taking one.

And yes, I apologize if you were insulted. I can see- clearly- how you would feel insulted about the statements I made about the girls death.

Dirty_G, I don't dislike you nor am I some meanie poo poo head that's out to get you.

You're concerns about the LHC are founded- and they are also founded in your misunderstandings about a great deal of the process. if you demonstrate the desire to learn about them, then folks will be happy to discuss- But when 42 pages have passed and some folks have been putting up with the stuff Warren Platts has littered the thread with- I dunno.. Maybe I am whining about it.
Then again, maybe I'm explaining to you that what you are perceiving as me being mean
is me being fed up.

oh well lets shake hands and make up. I cant be asked to argue all night long here. I f I have any more concerns I'll talk othewise the MBH one has been answered. cheers!!

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"Attack the idea, not the person" Posted by a Moderator.
Useful words around here indeed!!

heh.. You remind me of me...

cool neverfly. your a good bloke. so anyway warren the MBH agrument seems sound to me. What is your specific argument to counter that?

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"Attack the idea, not the person" Posted by a Moderator.
Useful words around here indeed!!

His specific arguments to counter the science that says MBHs can't destroy Earth are as follows:

1. I'm a metaphysical/teleological expert!
2. The scientists are like Hitler!
3. I think a demon is screwing with things.

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Warren seems to have a some fixation about the "worth" of the earth. Worth is a human concept. Without humans, the question becomes moot. What's the worth of any rock in this solar system? Ceres cares not what it's worth. Sedna cares not what it's worth. It's a silly argument, IMHO. The question reduces to removal of humans from earth. The idea that the entire planet might disappear along with the humans doesn't really matter in the "worth" equation.

Would anyone care to provide some numbers on the chance that we, humans, wipe out the entire race by an all out nuclear or biological, or chemical, or combination war, compared to the worst case scenarios of the LHC? My gut feeling says that the chances of things going horribly wrong with nuclear weapons, or other weapons, are much worse than us getting physics so utterly wrong that the LHC might do something horrible. If that is indeed the case, any person supporting any nationalistic view might cause more danger than any scientist working on the LHC. Even if the actual danger caused is still close to non-existant.

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" -- Charles Darwin
"Your right to hold an opinion is not being contested. Your expectation that it be taken seriously is." -- Jason Thompson
Meet the OOONG TOE.

It's broken anyway so we all get to survive for another couple of months.

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I'm glad for that, and I'm not going to knock his comments, but could you tell me what specifically put you at ease that you didn't see before in this thread?

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The point is that the value of Planet Earth is essentially infinite. Not only do you do not understand probabilities, you do not understand the nature of value or risk. Sorry.

In order to "get rid of it", we are indeed dependent on Hawking radiation. The whole astrophysical argument is that even if we can't get rid of mBH's through Hawking radiation, having millions of mBH's floating around within one's planet is harmless. Doesn't seem like a good idea to me. . . .

Yeah, constantly chanting "YOU'RE WRONG YOU'RE WRONG YOU'RE WRONG YOU'RE WRONG" ad infinitum is pretty simplistic, I'll grant.

Terrorists?

I have one, my friend. I think you're referring to cjameshuff's post:

1. If it is very easily possible that mBH's will not form, it is also, therefore, very easily possible that mBH's will form. In fact, the string theorists at CERN are eagerly hoping that mBH's will form, because that would be the first empirical confirmation that string theory is true. As Steve Giddings himself put it: "If we discover the Planck scale near the TeV scale, this will represent the most profound discovery in physics in a century, and black hole production will be the most spectacular evidence of that new discovery." (His paper "High energy colliders as black hole factories: The end of short distance physics", Physical Review D 6505: 6010, 2002, is one of the most cited papers ever in the physics literature.)

2. mBH's might be tiny, but they can still run into things.

3. Furthermore, if mBH's get charged, then they strongly interact with surrounding matter. Absorbing two negatively charged electrons will cause the mBH to crash into the atom's positively charged nucleus.

4. The physicists realize that the possibility mBH's trapped within the Earth might grow exponentially is in fact poorly constrained by the laws of physics. That's because eating matter is what black holes do.

5. So that's why the physicists reach for the astrophysical argument. They know that cosmic ray induced mBH's will pass harmlessly through the Earth (as does cjameshuff), whereas LHC induced mBH's will be at rest with respect to the Earth. So they make a few plausible--but non-worst case (as Mangano & Giddings themselves admit)--assumptions that white dwarfs--unlike the Earth or the Sun--are actually dense enough to stop cosmic ray induced black holes. Since white dwarfs are still here, mBH's must be harmless--or so their cherry picked theory says. Unfortunately, the theory depends on whether it is valid to extrapolate the semiclassical approximation to a realm it has never been tried before: to multi-dimensional mBH's existing deep within the quantum gravitational regime. mBH's may not decide to obey the semiclassical approximation, in which case cosmic ray induced mBH's would pass harmlessly through white dwarfs as well as Earth. In which case, astrophysics would not in fact constrain the equations of mBH growth within Earth.

So Neverfly, did you also assign a probability of 10^-21 to the possibility that the rate of expansion of the universe is actually accelerating? Oh, that's right. You're not old enough to remember when the opposite view prevailed. Sorry.

So if we kill ourselves, it won't matter because our descendants won't know the difference. Well then, let's open up them Pearly Gates! There ain't no time to wonder why--whoopie we're all gonna die!

How is extinction of humanity through removal of the planet any different than extinction of humanity through bio-weapon research gone wrong or through all out nuclear war? You were the one arguing that it does not matter how tiny the chance of catastrophic failure is. I'm arguing that if that chance is much smaller than other human induced humanity extinction, perhaps your time would be better spent protesting against those.

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" -- Charles Darwin
"Your right to hold an opinion is not being contested. Your expectation that it be taken seriously is." -- Jason Thompson
Meet the OOONG TOE.

(A) Disease and nuclear war won't cause the extinction of humanity.

(B) Your anthropocentricism is morally wrong besides being ultimately self-defeating. Do you think we have the right to superkill other species? If so, you should be spending your time protesting the Endangered Species Act of 1972. And thanks for the idea: the LHC is also in violation of the ESA. I'll be sure to pass this promising legal strategy on to Wagner and his friends.

I don't think you can be so sure of that. Sure it's unlikely for evey last person to be wiped out by diease or nuclear war, but I don't think you can say that not every single person will be wiped out with 100% certainty.

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Well it would be kind of self-defeating to release a biological weapon that will destroy one's own people, don't you think. And I'm all for getting rid of nuclear weapons as well--as long as the bad guys get rid of theirs first! At any rate, nobody suggests that we should plunge headlong into a nuclear war in order to see if it destroys the world or not. Unlike as is the case with the LHC.

What about nuclear weapons? I thought that's what we were talking about.

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All out nuclear war is self-defeating as well. That's why nobody suggests that we actually try it out.

So when the LHC doesn't destroy the planet what will be your next doomcry?

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I've been posting here for nearly three years now. If I really was a professional chicken little, I would have thought up something to "doomcry" about before the LHC came along, don't you think?

Maybe you have done but you just haven't posted about it. J/K

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Well, what else is there? Asteroids I guess. I do think we need to take the asteroid threat more seriously than we do. Ironically, it's been the US Air Force rather than NASA that has taken the lead. But that's another thread topic.

As I've mentioned before, the chicken littles got a real gold mine with this one. They'll probably be able to attribute earthquakes, volcanos, storms, migraines, aurorae, solar cycle variations, flu outbreaks, spots on Neptune, and flares on Proxima Centauri to slowly-growing world-destroying black holes created by the LHC for the remainder of the century, at least.