Incidentally whenever I get the the privilege to visit the British Museum (Sadly not since 2000) I always paid homage to the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III

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I don't think anybody who replied to this thread had the intent of putting into question the existence of the ancient Israelites. There certainly is plenty of evidence of that! What was questioned was the episode of their captivity in Egypt, and the date when that event might have taken place.

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"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.

The wiki entry is one place.

I could, but I don't.

You should know me well enough that I think there is plenty of circumstantial evidence for "those from heaven to earth came."



Agreed.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

It is the egyptian rendering of Hapiru, or Hebrew.

I see.

Although, it seems to me if one asserts "the only egyptian record..." one might be able to recall what that record is.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

I must have been thinking cross purposes here

Did you ever come across the thesis of Professor David Rohl that the Egyptian chronology is wrong, and using a revised Chronology many of the events recorded in the OT appear in the Archaeological record.

This is his book on the theory

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Do you know how many literally hundreds of books I read every year? Do you know how many I own? I read that it's the only piece of documentation. The book I read said "the only." I will go find which book it is, but that will take time. Some of us prefer to do our research from books.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Well, perhaps a duey decimal system might help you better organize your books for quick reference?

Would it matter to you that I also have a library?
That I also, while not hundreds, read many books each year?

Am I supposed to be impressed somehow with how well read you might be?

What I'd be impressed with, Gillian, is a reference to support your assertion of the "only egyptian record..."

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

If there are others, surely someone could post them? I'd be most interested myself.

Well, wiki's article on Habiru lists several egyptian sources, which is why I wanted Gillianren to produce a source supporting her "only egyptian record..." assertion.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

Thanks for the link. However, it seems that issue is far from settled in that article:
And here:
Perhaps Gillianren was referring to generally agreed upon references (I don't mean to speak for her, just wondering)?

Which issue exactly?
Whether or not there are more than one egyptian reference or whether pr.w, habiru, hapiru are the biblical Hebrews?

Perhaps, but I'd like to know which book says "the only egyptian record."

"In that vein, some modern scholars consider the Habiru to be more of a social designation than an ethnic or a tribal one. That does not, however, exclude the possibility that the Biblical Hebrews were descended from one specific group of Habiru and that with them it eventually became an ethnic name; such shifts in the meaning of names and designations are well-known elsewhere."

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

I'm a bit confused, A.DIM. You wrote:

Why did you speak of 'a couple million Hebrews in the Sinai for 40yrs'? I didn't know there was a figure for the number of Hebrews who supposedly fled Egypt with Moses, and a couple million seems far too high...

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"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.

For context of the era the Ipuwer papyrus is fascinating. It seems to describe events from the Egyptian point of view.

For a background of the writing Wiki will do.

For an English translation see here.

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(By the way, I hate it that so many papers in the areas of planetary science and geology are not easily available to the dreaded "non-subscribers". It is like they are screaming at me: "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH". Good, I feel better now.)

"Quaerendo inventis"

Exodus 12:37 speaks of some 600 thousand military aged men accompanied by many others. You will find in almost any discussion of the exodus estimates from 2 million upwards of 4 million.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

From Don't Know Much About the Bible, by Kenneth C. Davis:

I'm still looking for the other reference; clearly, it is in a different book.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Thanks for that quote, Gillianren.

Interesting, indeed. Strongly suggestive of a social upheaval, perhaps even revolution. "Woe is me: my servants have become masters, and I a servant" -- an eternal theme.

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"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.

Revolution indeed: section II

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(By the way, I hate it that so many papers in the areas of planetary science and geology are not easily available to the dreaded "non-subscribers". It is like they are screaming at me: "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH". Good, I feel better now.)

"Quaerendo inventis"

And hopefully more scholarly, as well as relevant to my question.

IMO, Davis' "Don't Know Much About..." series is akin to the "...for Dummies" series.

Don't know much about Geography, about History, about Civil War...

I wonder what is his educational background?
What qualifies him as an authority on any of these topics?


No matter, I'm still looking forward to the reference which states "the only egyptian record."

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

Am I missing something? You don't seem to offer any Egyptian records to contradict that statement. Nothing definitive, anyway.

Hmmm.... is it my burden to disprove or hers to prove?

Am I missing something?

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

Just feels like you're trying to get her to prove a negative. Perhaps I am misunderstanding.

I'm simply asking her for a reference which supports her assertion, nothing more.

Were I to make such an assertion surely others would do the same, no?

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

I suppose...but I'd still like to see evidence of references that contradict hers. That's a serious question; the Bible is riddled with inaccuracies and I am genuinely curious if there is strong evidence to support the notion that the 40 years in the Sinai story has any basis in fact. As far as I know, the evidence is thin...and that's being generous.

If I am wrong, I will be delighted to be shown otherwise.

I didn't say there is "strong evidence" for the Exodus, Daffy.

But did Gillianren provide any evidence for her statement?

You seem willing to accept it without any evidence...

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

If you mean the statement you quoted in bolface, then Gillian has said that she's looking for the reference. Please be patient.

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"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.

That's not my point at all. If you have evidence that the statement is wrong, it doesn't matter who said it or when: it is wrong. So who cares who said it?

If it is correct then, again, what difference does it make?

I'm still looking. But I, too, would love to see evidence that I'm wrong, whether I find my reference or not. And for your personal information, Davis is a historian, and many, many people in his field are quite impressed by his books. Even if he weren't a historian, does that really matter if his research is good?

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Yes, I'm patiently awaiting.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

You have a point?

I never said Gillianren was wrong, I only asked for a reference.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

I never said you're wrong, Gillianren.

I just want the reference which supports your assertion on the "only" egyptian record.

__________________
"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill