Wagner in Court today? [suing to stop the LHC]

Seftrex · #1 (**permalink**) 16-June-2008, 04:22 PM

I know this isn't perhaps the greatest first thread/post to make... Yet I am curious if anyone has any further details on wether this is actually happening today?

I am also interested in wether CERN shall show up, frankly I believe they have no need to proove the safety of the LHC after they have...

But meh...

(Also, I am sorry if this is in the wrong area.)

Ilya · #2 (**permalink**) 16-June-2008, 04:28 PM

Why is Wagner is court? "Ride of the Valkyrie" is not THAT annoying.

01101001 · #3 (**permalink**) 16-June-2008, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilya

Why is Wagner is court? "Ride of the Valkyrie" is not THAT annoying.

The "Astronomy" section context of this topic might have thrown you.

The Register: Botanist sues to stop CERN hurling Earth into parallel universe

Quote:

A lawsuit has been filed in Hawaii in an attempt to hold up the start of operations by the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) atom-smasher on the French-Swiss border.

A colourful American botanist, teacher, former biologist and sometime physicist says (in outline) that the LHC may rip a hole in the fabric of the space-time continuum and so destroy the Earth. He wants the US government to act now and delay the LHC's startup while a new safety review is carried out.

Walter L Wagner and his fellow Hawaiian Luis Sancho, according to a report on MSNBC, filed suit in the Hawaii federal court [Friday March 21].

Marketwatch: Tech giants use controversial project as test bed

Quote:

A scheduling conference in the case has been slated for June 16, according to court filings.

It's just a scheduling conference, not exactly "a day in court".

Players:

US District Court, District of Hawaii: Daily Calendar [June 16]:

[JUDGE KEVIN S. C. CHANG]

Quote:

CV 08-00136HG-KSC

09:00

Luis Sancho, et al.
Attorneys:
Luis Sancho, Pro Se Walter L. Wagner, Pro Se

U.S. Department of Energy, et al.,
Attorneys:
Derrick K. Watson Andrew Smith

Rule 16 Scheduling Conference Walter Wagner, Luis Sancho and Andrew Smith by phone

Seftrex · #4 (**permalink**) 16-June-2008, 04:57 PM

Ok... How can this effect wether the LHC is activated?

Surely all this shall accomplish is the date being pushed back... Not a complete "No... It shall not be turned on." That Wagner is hoping for...

Damn... This is like a really bad soap opera.

01101001 · #5 (**permalink**) 16-June-2008, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seftrex

Ok... How can this effect wether the LHC is activated?

I don't see how today's meeting can. They'll talk about what the lawsuit issues are and when the next events need to happen. Less than 90 minutes (probably more like 15) and both sides are phoning it in. It's for planning.

Oh... And, welcome to BAUT Forum!

ToSeek · #6 (**permalink**) 16-June-2008, 05:17 PM

Thread moved from "Astronomy" to "General Science" and title edited to make topic clearer.

ToSeek
BAUT Forum Moderator

Meanwhile, welcome Seltrex! Don't let my little moderator action deter you - it's just a bit of routine housekeeping.

Seftrex · #7 (**permalink**) 16-June-2008, 05:21 PM

It's fine, I wasn't quite sure if I put this in the right area

Thankyou.

01101001 · #8 (**permalink**) 16-June-2008, 05:53 PM

Federal Rules of Civil Procedure :: Rule 16. Pretrial Conferences; Scheduling; Management (Feel free to click "No thanks" on the donation-page gateway.)

[Purposes:]

Quote:

(1) expediting disposition of the action;

(2) establishing early and continuing control so that the case will not be protracted because of lack of management;

(3) discouraging wasteful pretrial activities;

(4) improving the quality of the trial through more thorough preparation, and;

(5) facilitating settlement.

And scheduling...

captain swoop · #9 (**permalink**) 16-June-2008, 07:22 PM

How would a Court in Hawaii have juristiction on a project in Europe?

sarongsong · #10 (**permalink**) 16-June-2008, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Bio
Walter L. Wagner graduated UC Berkeley with a Minor in Physics, and a Major in Biology. Later, he discovered a novel particle in a balloon-borne cosmic ray detector, initially identified as a magnetic monopole. Though its identity remains uncertain, it is definitely not within the standard repertoire of known particles. After a three-year break from science to attend law school, Dr. Wagner resumed work in Physics and Biology at the US Veterans Administration Medical Center in San Francisco, working in Nuclear Medicine and Health Physics. He then embarked on teaching Science and Mathematics, from grade school to college. Dr. Wagner developed a botanical garden in Hawaii, and continues involvement with several professional associations, including Health Physics Society and Society of Nuclear Medicine.
coasttocoastam.com

Hardly seems worthy of being referred to by last name only.

Quote:

Home Page
This is the interim web-site for the Large Hadron Collider [LHC] legal defense fund. This fund has been established by Walter L. Wagner, a nuclear physicist, to initiate legal action to require that CERN and the Large Hadron Collider engage in a full safety analysis for all potential theoretical hazards inadequately addressed to-date...
LARGE HADRON COLLIDER - THE LEGAL DEFENSE FUND SITE

01101001 · #11 (**permalink**) 16-June-2008, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captain swoop

How would a Court in Hawaii have juristiction on a project in Europe?

Via US Department of Energy participation -- the court could issue an order to a member of the project.

MSNBC Cosmic Blog: DOOMSDAY FEARS SPARK LAWSUIT:

Quote:

The suit calls on the U.S. Department of Energy, Fermilab, the National Science Foundation and CERN to ease up on their LHC preparations for several months while the collider's safety was reassessed.

I haven't read the motions. Seems like an order from the court could gum up the works some, but maybe CERN could route around the damage. I don't know how entangled things are among the various participants.

Celestial Mechanic · #12 (**permalink**) 16-June-2008, 08:17 PM

Isn't the LHC supposed to be started up Real Soon Now? As soon as they do the resulting fait accompli would render the court case moot.

01101001 · #13 (**permalink**) 16-June-2008, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Mechanic

Isn't the LHC supposed to be started up Real Soon Now? As soon as they do the resulting fait accompli would render the court case moot.

MSNBC (but plans might vary):

Quote:

(CERN's schedule currently calls for first collisions by the end of August, and the word is that the collider may not reach its full power of 14 trillion electron-volts until next year.)

I don't see a current schedule, but Google knows a thousand links to last year's change of schedule. Didn't read that. Maybe they're sticking to it. I shall surf CERN for current plans when I get time.

01101001 · #14 (**permalink**) 17-June-2008, 02:13 AM

I couldn't find a schedule at CERN. What a morass. And, to think the World-Wide Web was created there to help convey information between scientists. I'm sure a schedule is there. It just didn't fall into my lap.

Meanwhile, in the court's scheduling teleconference...

MSNBC Cosmic Log: Documents flesh out doomsday debate

Quote:

Federal attorneys tell their side in lawsuit over particle collider

Take today's seven-minute-long [my 15-minute estimate: off by a factor of two --01101001] conference in Hawaii's U.S. District Court, for example: The meeting set up the schedule for a federal trial, due to begin a year from today, on a suit seeking to hold up operations at Europe's Large Hadron Collider while officials answer claims that the machine could create world-gobbling black holes or other monsters.

Quote:

While the federal government plans to file a motion to dismiss the suit, the plaintiffs - that is, Sancho and Wagner - plan to file a motion for a preliminary injunction that would put a hold on LHC operations until CERN lets them review an updated safety report. Once they're filed, the two motions could be heard together during a session yet to be scheduled by Judge Helen Gillmor.
[...]
It's not yet clear whether the court will allow the current lawsuit to be expanded - or, for that matter, whether the lawsuit will go forward or face dismissal. That will have to wait for this summer's court hearing, probably in late July or August.

Jerry · #15 (**permalink**) 17-June-2008, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Mechanic

Isn't the LHC supposed to be started up Real Soon Now? As soon as they do the resulting fait accompli would render the court case moot.

Especially if we all disappear into a microdot black hole!

Seriously, according to Bob Parks, Cosmic Rays are constantly bombarding the moon with more energy than the LHC. So even if we don't know for sure what we are doing, we should sleep easy near the LHC...as long as the moon is still hanging around.

Celestial Mechanic · #16 (**permalink**) 17-June-2008, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry

[Snip!] Seriously, according to Bob Parks, Cosmic Rays are constantly bombarding the moon with more energy than the LHC. So even if we don't know for sure what we are doing, we should sleep easy near the LHC...as long as the moon is still hanging around.

Something we both agree on.

Say, wouldn't this lawsuit make a good episode for Boston Legal? Or have they already done this?

Seftrex · #17 (**permalink**) 17-June-2008, 11:08 AM

I located the schedule on the CERN site located Here

If you can not get on the website, here is the recent schedule:

Quote:

# End of June: The LHC is expected to be cooled down. The experiments are requested to have their beam pipes baked out.
# Middle of July: The experimental caverns will be closed after the caverns and tunnel have been patrolled. From then on the controlled access system will be fully activated.
# End of July: First particles may be injected, and the commissioning with beams and collisions will start.
# It is expected that it will take about 2 months to have first collisions at 10 TeV.
# Energy of the 2008 run: Agreed to be 10 TeV. The machine considers this to be a safe setting to optimize up-time of the machine until the winter shut-down (starting likely around end of November). Therefore, simulations can now start for 10 TeV.
# The winter shut-down will then be used to commissioning and train the magnets up to full current, such that the 2009 run will start at the full 14 TeV design energy.

The part in bold reveals to me that the first Collisions shall be in September, during August they shall be commissioning and running tests and simulations at 10 TeV.

However, I think this court case thing with Wagner may infact push it to next year.

Only time will tell...

Swift · #18 (**permalink**) 17-June-2008, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry

Seriously, according to Bob Parks, Cosmic Rays are constantly bombarding the moon with more energy than the LHC. So even if we don't know for sure what we are doing, we should sleep easy near the LHC...as long as the moon is still hanging around.

Forget the moon, cosmic rays are constantly bombarding the Earth with more energy than the LHC. So its even easier to see that this isn't a problem.

trinitree88 · #19 (**permalink**) 17-June-2008, 08:28 PM

How absurd that they would waste their time on such a lawsuit.

...but then again, you ask for hot coffee, they make hot coffee, they serve you hot coffeee as you asked, you spill the hot coffee on yourself..(not them, you)...and you sue them because the coffee was hot....and win

pete

peter eldergill · #20 (**permalink**) 17-June-2008, 09:10 PM

Does anyone else think it arrogant that we think that humans at this time can smash two protons together with enough energy as to destroy the earth? I think the whole thing is quite silly.

ravens_cry · #21 (**permalink**) 17-June-2008, 11:12 PM

As of yet, sure. But someday we WILL have that capability. When we do, will we be so arrogant as to put billions of peoples lives at risk? This isn't a danger, now. But will we be so enamored by the science to be done, that we forget the reprecussions? Just playing devils advocate here.

Seftrex · #22 (**permalink**) 20-June-2008, 05:29 PM

Has there been any news?

01101001 · #23 (**permalink**) 20-June-2008, 05:57 PM

Favor please? Lose the funny font and color, please? Just use the default. It's much easier for me to read. Your words don't need dressing up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seftrex

Has there been any news?

No. Don't expect any. Some motions may get filed. Scheduled is one from the Feds on June 24. That's not what I'd really call news though, but just steps in the process. It's a grind.

As cited in the MSNBC blog coverage in the article above:

Quote:

It's not yet clear whether the court will allow the current lawsuit to be expanded - or, for that matter, whether the lawsuit will go forward or face dismissal. That will have to wait for this summer's court hearing, probably in late July or August.

That will be news. Be patient. This isn't going to happen quickly.

Seftrex · #24 (**permalink**) 20-June-2008, 06:02 PM

I always use this font and color when using any Vbulletin Forum... However, if it does annoy you... I shall change.

Here is the official new safety report/summary... So I think Wagner loses:

LHC Safety

I shall show a bit from the page in question:

Quote:

Cosmic rays

The LHC, like other particle accelerators, recreates the natural phenomena of cosmic rays under controlled laboratory conditions, enabling them to be studied in more detail. Cosmic rays are particles produced in outer space, some of which are accelerated to energies far exceeding those of the LHC. The energy and the rate at which they reach the Earth’s atmosphere have been measured in experiments for some 70 years. Over the past billions of years, Nature has already generated on Earth as many collisions as about a million LHC experiments – and the planet still exists. Astronomers observe an enormous number of larger astronomical bodies throughout the Universe, all of which are also struck by cosmic rays. The Universe as a whole conducts more than 10 million million LHC-like experiments per second. The possibility of any dangerous consequences contradicts what astronomers see - stars and galaxies still exist.

Chris Hillman · #25 (**permalink**) 20-June-2008, 08:32 PM

Someone mentioned the blog of Bob Park (Physics, University of Maryland), who often debunks woo. I think the intended link is http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN08/wn040408.html

Another salacious tidbit snipped from the article at El Reg mentioned above

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lewis Page, The Register 28th March 2008

Wagner is, in fact, an expert in many fields. In his first degree at Berkeley he majored in biology and minored in physics. He then attended law school for three years, and later worked in nuclear medicine and health physics before becoming a grade-school teacher. He also founded the World Botanical Gardens in Umauma, Hawaii, and is now embroiled in a bitter legal battle with the Gardens board. According to the Hawaii Tribune-Herald (free registration required), he and his wife were indicted last month by a grand jury on counts of identity theft and attempted theft relating to an alleged attempt to obtain $340,000 from the gardens company.

Yeah, it's difficult to take this seriously :smile:

Ditto Morse-Thue (that's 01101001 to you!) about tricky VBulletin settings.

01101001 · #26 (**permalink**) 21-June-2008, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seftrex

I always use this font and color when using any Vbulletin Forum... However, if it does annoy you... I shall change.

Here is the official new safety report/summary...

Ah. Thanks. Few people here trick up their style. You'll blend in better. It looks calmer already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seftrex

So I think Wagner loses:

But, what does the judge think? That's what will matter. We will all, no doubt, discover that eventually, on the schedule that all the parties understand and endorse.

Ever watch a real trial? It's mostly a lot of nothing happening, like a Bergman movie. Tick... Tick... Tick...

The LHC (Large Hadron Collider): slamming things together at near the speed of light to see what happens.

The FDC (Federal District Court): slamming things together at a speed of nearly zero to see what happens.

Chris Hillman · #27 (**permalink**) 21-June-2008, 09:05 PM

Physics at the speed of court!

Jerry · #28 (**permalink**) 23-June-2008, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Mechanic

Something we both agree on.

Say, wouldn't this lawsuit make a good episode for Boston Legal? Or have they already done this?

Love it. They tend to pick up on legal absurdities in the headlines, so I hope this is a seed.

Somebody SHOULD have sued to prevent the Bikini Atoll tests. We clearly did not know what we where doing, the bomb exceeding the expected yield by what? A full magnitude?

Jim · #29 (**permalink**) 23-June-2008, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 01101001

Ever watch a real trial? It's mostly a lot of nothing happening, like a Bergman movie. Tick... Tick... Tick...

If only they were that exciting.

I was on a jury a few years back. The bailiff had a big desk with a swivel chair set off to the side of the room. She spent much of the trial in that chair with her back to the court.

We all knew she was napping.

Jim · #30 (**permalink**) 23-June-2008, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry

Somebody SHOULD have sued to prevent the Bikini Atoll tests. We clearly did not know what we where doing, the bomb exceeding the expected yield by what? A full magnitude?

And we all know what happened... the sky caught fire, the earth was burned up, all life was exterminated, and the French invented the two-piece bathing suit.

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