Ok, well that depends what you mean by "disposable"... I still can't believe that you think women are allowed to serve in combat roles, which country are you from? Also as with the hasty generalizations ("stereotypes"),men and women have had different positions in history, and have different "perceived" positions in current society (though it's not nearly as strong as in the past)... Even you must admit that in the past men have "dominated" women in nearly every culture/society. Lastly, the main reason the armed services say they will not allow women in combat roles, is that they fear what would happen to them if capture; and it's not as if men are being forced to join the military, so if you don't want to fight you don't have to...

__________________
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.
~~~ Richard Feynman ~~~
It is imperative in science to doubt.
~~~ Richard Feynman ~~~
Common sense is not so common
~~~ Voltaire ~~~

I've been confuzzled about "combat roles" for years. I keep hearing that they aren't allowed to do those jobs, but then, I've heard of cases in which women were actually in certain units that get into combat anyway...

This is true- and one thing about being in the service- You can find yourself in combat regardless of MOS.

Certain MOS' are considered Combat MOS- like Artillery Scout or Infantry.
This only means that those persons WILL find themselves in combat.
NonCombatant MOS skills are less likely to see combat- but that does not mean they never will. It means they are just not as likely to be in combat.
Many noncombat MOS units are deployed into combat areas in order to do their job. Which is what it means to have that job.
So the bar on Combat MOS does not keep a woman out of combat. It keeps a woman out of guaranteed combat.

It also is not discrimination against women- nor is it based on strength.

It is based on tension and friction that can occur between men and women in a heavy combat zone- especially when all the showers and toilets are coed and women these days love to cry foul even though they have no problem walking into male shower rooms.

So you are suggesting that the strongest of women is weaker than the minimum requirements for a combat soldier? That is obnoxious and completely nonsense.


*rolls eyes* That was used to keep black men and white men segregated in previous wars. They got use to the differences. Yeah, black and white is nothing compaired to male and female, but that's just because you don't remember just how deeply ingrained the idea that blacks and whites couldn't share facilities once was.

Yeah, and women have to be satisfied with being more intelligent, level-headed, and thoughtful than me.

I think you're reacting emotionally without actually reading the words I used.

Let's try this again, shall we?


Not only did I not say that- I did not imply nor suggest it, nor could what I said be made into meaning that without some very imaginitive twisting on the part of the reader.

What I said was that the bar is not because of a difference in strength.

On the AVERAGE, men have more upper body strength. But that's just an average and has nothing to do with individuals.
I've known many very strong women, including one that can hurl 100lb feed sucks with ease.
But even in todays modern combat- strength is only a limited asset. It's handy in Hand To Hand combat.
It hardly gets that far.

As long as a woman can take aim and kill her opponent with a firearm- a woman can perform in battle just fine.

I'll remind all that when Hitler invaded Russia, his troops encountered mostly women once in Mother Russia.
They tore the Nazi's up.

I, personally, have no qualms whatsoever with women in combat and think they should be allowed to choose a combat MOS.

I was only stating for clarity- that the MILITARY's stance on the issue is not necessarily based on stereotypes.
[ETA: Women also tend to have stronger legs. The average woman can lift more with her legs (or give a stronger roundhouse kick) than a man can.]
Bold Mine:
You just explained why your counter argument doesn't apply in the part I put in bold.

And I'm well aware of how segregation was nonsense- in fact to the point that people even thought black people had "germs" that could get you if they touched your food- etc.

But unless you have no problems stripping naked in the showers with a buncha guys
YOU might be the one raising Cain and causing tension!

Like the reasoning or not- that tension and friction exists.
In a life and death Combat Situation- troop leaders have much bigger concerns to deal with that squabbling sexual tensions.

Like I said, I think it's based on fear more than reality-I have no problem whatsoever with the idea of men and women serving in combat- and I would appreciate it if you Backed up
Stopped attempting to paint me as a chauvinist based on your imaginative twisting of my words
when your paint does not apply to me.

Nevefly:

Yep, but the military says that all of it's "members" know how to take orders from both women and men, and the like... Also I don't know how Halcyonyear read your remarks, but I also think it was pretty obvious what you meant... maybe he read them to quickly...

__________________
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.
~~~ Richard Feynman ~~~
It is imperative in science to doubt.
~~~ Richard Feynman ~~~
Common sense is not so common
~~~ Voltaire ~~~

I admit, I get a little frustrated by that.
I was simply pointing out that the reasons for it are not necessarily Chauvinism.

And that's true too, the Military IS striving for education. I can tell you, there is NO tolerance for racism in todays military.
And I answered to many high ranking female NCO's and Officers that were female, without really noticing that they were female.
Only real difference was saying, "Ma'am" instead of "Sir". But no one really cared.
One of my Drill Instructors was female- who was also my favorite D.I.
She knew her drill, was very fair but strict. She also had a killer sense of humor and had a knack of reducing a tense situation.
She wasn't a Female D.I.
She was just a D.I and a damn good one.

I find sexual commentary like catcalls uncalled for and annoying.
I really do not care if a woman outranks me and I'm annoyed by men that are bothered by it.

So for me to get accused of that kind of behavior is a huge slap in the face.

I believe The HalcyonYear is a girl, guys.

__________________
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.

Yes, I think being female is one of the job requirements for "Mistress of the Universe".

I think you're wrong. Sounds to me like THY is a man:

And level-headed? Are you nuts?

Have you ever had a girl move in with you? I've never had so much instability in my life as the two times I've had women living in my apartment.

So.. does that mean you are "stable "now?

Yeah- they keep leaving him

I believe that was a typo for "men."

__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

No, Gillianren I don't think it was a typo, and what do you have aganist men anyways?

__________________
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.
~~~ Richard Feynman ~~~
It is imperative in science to doubt.
~~~ Richard Feynman ~~~
Common sense is not so common
~~~ Voltaire ~~~

You could be right. It was a guess on my part. Either way, I have no problem with men, as my boyfriend will cheerfully attest. (Likewise my D&D group.) I have a problem with certain men, of course; nobody likes everybody. I have a problem with thinking men are automatically better than women, but I have a problem with thinking women are automatically better than men. I think a reasoned look at history, including the pop culture of the time, shows a clear pattern of improvement in the status of women over the last few hundred years, and I think there's a lot of room for improvement yet. (More in some cultures than others.) I find it interesting that I, who have sought to provide balance to the discussion, am constantly being accused of being a misandrist.

__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

If you can't figure out why your "being accused of being a misandrist", then maybe you should take a look at some of your posts... for instance you said that you believed it was a typo for "men", would you like to elaborate further of that? When you say
Why don't you just say people, do you like all women?

__________________
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.
~~~ Richard Feynman ~~~
It is imperative in science to doubt.
~~~ Richard Feynman ~~~
Common sense is not so common
~~~ Voltaire ~~~

Hey, I can do that. The statement by TheHalcyonYear was:

TheHalcyonYear has identified herself as a woman, so "me" in this context doesn't make sense.

Edit to add: You do understand that pointing out a typo does not mean one is required to agree with the statement?

__________________
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Maybe , we have to wait for TheHalyconYear to post to confirm herself/himself about this gender confusion.

Yep, I think the profile information, added with her/his posts, and the posts of other members have really confused the situtation...

__________________
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.
~~~ Richard Feynman ~~~
It is imperative in science to doubt.
~~~ Richard Feynman ~~~
Common sense is not so common
~~~ Voltaire ~~~

Well, because I was pretty sure, based on other posts, that THY is a woman. Ergo, logically, it had to be a typo. If I am wrong, and THY is a man, logically, it is not.

Because we are discussing my like or dislike of men. My like or dislike of women is irrelevant to that fact. As it happens, I could, indeed, list you quite a lot of women that I don't like, starting with one of my own sisters. But since no one was accusing me of being a misogynist, my dislike of women didn't need clarification. And for heaven's sake, if I'm going to be throrough, I'm going to be honest that I don't like all men. (Like my brother-in-law; regretfully, he's married to the sister I do like.) If I didn't, I'd be a hypocrite.

__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

So my question is why are we/you discussing your dislike of men? Do you dislike men more than women? I'm not sure your "disliking" of men is relevent...

__________________
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.
~~~ Richard Feynman ~~~
It is imperative in science to doubt.
~~~ Richard Feynman ~~~
Common sense is not so common
~~~ Voltaire ~~~

You brought it up.

__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Gillianren, you appear to have fallen into the same trap that I frequently fall into.

Maybe I don't pay enough attention, but I was surprised that spratleyj quote-mined a response to his own question and either forgot his point or baited Gillian. I don't think I've seen that done too much here.

Actually, I was referring to defending a position to the point that it takes on the appearance of greater zeal than intended.

The Irony- of course- in that Gillianren often mistakes what I say for that same reason.

She often responds with, "Well, according to your posts- it sure likes like you mean (such and such.)"

Honestly, I'm feeling fairly dispassionate on the subject. It's obvious that, no matter what I say at this point, I will be portrayed as a misandrist. Never mind that I acknowledge that stereotypes of both genders appear on TV/in movies, which I think is a pretty balanced position. No matter that I agree that the place of women in most Western cultures is far better than it was even twenty years ago. Oh, well. Whatever. If it makes someone happy to think I'm a misandrist, what do I care? I just worry some that, if my middle-of-the-road statements define me as a misandrist, what woman isn't one?

__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Doesn't feel too good does it?

Do you beat your wife? What a question.

__________________
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

I don't think my question, was a "complex question" - I wasn't asking for a yes, or no answer... I was asking her why she was telling us about her "disliking" of men, with such great zeal... I was trying to see if she was saying that she didn't have any problems with women... and if she wasn't saying that, then why was she discussing her "dislike" of men. In a previous post I asked why she was discussing her dislike of men, she responded that her dislike of women wasn't relevant, but her disliking of men was... so I was trying to see why her dislike of men, and not women was relevent...

__________________
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.
~~~ Richard Feynman ~~~
It is imperative in science to doubt.
~~~ Richard Feynman ~~~
Common sense is not so common
~~~ Voltaire ~~~