"We've all heard it. Many of us in fact believe it. Girls just aren't as good at math as boys. But is it true? After sifting through mountains of data - including SAT results and math scores from 7 million students who were tested in accordance with the No Child Left Behind Act - a team of scientists says the answer is no." Science Daily

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"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.

Given the bias against boys in the education system I'm surprised they do as well.

I guess I should have seen that one coming.

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"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.

Yep, very interesting. It used to be thought there was a very small genetic difference, but it's possible that difference isn't there.

On the other hand, I'd like to measure, are the girls getting better to match the boys, or the boys getting worse, or both. I remember teaching calculus how annoyed I was that so many students didn't have basic high-school algebra under their belts--a necessity for progressing in calculus--and I do know from looking at older high school math textbooks that they are getting a bit dumbed down as the years go on. For example, I went to High School about the time matrices and operations on matrices was taken out of standard high-school algebra fare. My math teacher was so angry he kept some of the old algebra books and passed them out so we could do the chapter on matrices.

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Todd (Bowie, MD, US, North America, Earth, Sol System, Vega region, Local Bubble, Orion arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Virgo A Cluster, Virgo supercluster, the universe in which spock is clean shaven)

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

personal page: http://blog.astrosketches.info

Is this an example of Feminist Science[tm]?

I'm too tired to look it up, but I detect a whiff of AAUW.

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Olsen the moderator.

Even if there has been a dumbing down, wouldn't the likely result of that be to lower the proficiency of boys and girls by the same amount? That wouldn't eliminate the mean difference between boys and girls, if there were one.

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"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.

When I was in high school, it wasn't so much that girls couldn't do math. They were actively discouraged from studying math and science as not being feminine. Those who bucked the system were almost always near the top of the class!

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Any day you wake up on "the right side of the dirt" is a good day.

T. Anderson

I recommend a book to anyone who is interested:

The War Against Boys, by Christina Hoff Sommers.

It has long been claimed that educational systems are prejudiced against girls. Now that changes to make the educational system more girl-friendly have been put in place, boys are falling out of the educational system at every level.


There are more women in college than men, yet advocacy studies still find cause to claim that women are victims in western society WRT education.

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Olsen the moderator.

I've heard this claimed, but seen little evidence for it. A little yes- to be sure.
Not much.

Most of the time, girls and boys alike expressed disinterest in math. Why? Because math is always challenging. People like to take it easy.
Well, who wouldn't run with an excuse if it offered the easy road?

What evidence do you want?

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

...Yet the higher echelons of most professions are still largely dominated by men. Power matters.

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"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.

How about evidence that convinces me that women in recent times are bullied into NOT learning math?

Funny, there are female scientists older than you and Kaptain K.

Just because it happens occasionally, or even happens frequently in one nation- does not speak for the entire globe.

John Jones, Neverfly, etc.: got anything to say about the actual article?

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"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.

The article doesn't surprise me in the least. I think it's a good thing that they actually took a look and published some findings that remind folks, too.

The irony is: Growing up, I always thought girls were better at math than boys.

That could be--a possibility (unfortunately, a likely one) is both have gone down in performance by different amounts and landed on "equality". If so, that is not something to celebrate!!!! equality is not a good thing when it means "equally bad". As an analogy, better that the people of a nation be unequally rich than equally poor.

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Todd (Bowie, MD, US, North America, Earth, Sol System, Vega region, Local Bubble, Orion arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Virgo A Cluster, Virgo supercluster, the universe in which spock is clean shaven)

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

personal page: http://blog.astrosketches.info

What makes you say that that possibility you mention is likely?

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"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.

You know- since when do teenage girls NOT buck the system?
Tell them to do this- and they do that. Tell them not to do that- they do this anyway...

You make it sound like a bunch of does willingly do as their told. By their Mothers and Peers I might add?

If teenage girls don't do math, it's because they don't WANT to do math.

experience with the dumbing down of education.

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Todd (Bowie, MD, US, North America, Earth, Sol System, Vega region, Local Bubble, Orion arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Virgo A Cluster, Virgo supercluster, the universe in which spock is clean shaven)

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

personal page: http://blog.astrosketches.info

I meant the bolded part below:

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"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.

You don't know much about teenage girls. Peer pressure is enormous. "Bucking the system" is punished with swift retribution from the other girls. At bare minimum, by complete isolation. I am old enough to remember the talking Barbie who said, among other things, "Math is hard!" I'm not as old as Kaptain K, so things were getting better by the time I was in high school. My advanced math class was about even. My physics class actually had more girls than boys, but since there were fewer than a dozen of us, I'm not sure it's an accurate sample of anything.

Here's a fun thought experiment. Name the greatest scientists, the greatest mathemeticians of all time. Marie Curie will probably be on your list; if she's not, shame on you. But other than Rosalind Franklin, Barbara McClintock, and Grace Hopper, who do you have?

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Ok so you say I don't know anything about teenage girls...
Then said the exact same thing I said. That isn't the system or society- I said PEERS and you said peers.

You see? We agree.

I never knew any math teachers that discouraged their female students. I'm not saying they don't exist- but don't stereotype and clump the minority into the majority.

Neverfly, I'm guessing you're a fairly young guy. I'm probably not much older than you, but I remember things, and I've heard about more. It may be difficult to imagine, for today's youth (especially the male youth), what the world was like for women just a couple generations ago. Do not make the mistake of assuming that the way you lived is the way people have always lived everywhere. It was very different in subtle but decisive ways.

P.S. Heck, what am I saying? You need go no farther back than 3 years ago, in some places.

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"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.

uh, a little basic math here--if they start out different and end up the same, it's got to be "different amounts"....

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Todd (Bowie, MD, US, North America, Earth, Sol System, Vega region, Local Bubble, Orion arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Virgo A Cluster, Virgo supercluster, the universe in which spock is clean shaven)

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

personal page: http://blog.astrosketches.info

So did Teddy Ruxpin.
G.I. Joe doesn't exactly glorify math to boys.

But if a GIRLS toy says something- WHOOPS! Time to jump on the bandwagon and claim women are victimized by society.

In the meantime, they make the "Easy Bake Oven."
Should we now claim that "Society" is forcing little girls to enjoy cooking?
Nevermind the fact that id they girl doesn't like the toy- She won't play with it.

And I may have had talking toys when I was a kid, I am sure they may even have been opinionated. But I didn't listen to them.

Does Tony Hawks Skateboard Challenge Video game encourage budding young mathematicians?
Heck, ride a board gud and yoo wont need no edjucashun.

Why are you assuming that they started out different? Different in what sense?

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"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.

The stereotypes are on both sides.
And don't let my age fool ya, I grew up with the Old Folks.

GIRLS have not changed in a couple generations, and probably very little in a thousand years.

I disagree. In western societies, girls have changed tremendously in the last couple of generations. So have boys, for that matter.

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"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.

I find that very interesting...

In fact, I recall---Gillianren pointing out----the ancient Roman days and that the old folks always complain about the younger generation and how they've changed and gone to the dogs

How ironic that the people that taught me to re-examine my stereotypes have now started supporting them.

I'm glad to know that some girls are good at math, even if I'm not.

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When you're standing on the edge of nowhere, there's only one way up...
"If you think the LHC will create black holes, you might as well believe Hobbits are at the bottom of your garden."- Dr. Mike Inglis
Rovers forever! - ToSeek