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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 11-September-2008, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnD View Post
Report in today's New Scientist (13th Sept), necessarily written before the switch-on date, writes of the need for "beam dumps", where the packet of protons is directed down a side channel to impact in a "1000 tonne block of graphite, concerte and steel designed to absorb its energy".
What? Would even a packet from the LHC make a leaf flutter on impact?

Then, it says the such beam dumps will be "vital to prevent the protons drilling holes in the machine."
Really? Is the LHC such a death ray?

John
A death Ray?! Sheesh!
Have you looked into the mechanics of the Existing Particle Accelerators?

The LHC seems to be developing a Cult Following here...

THe beam consists of a great deal more than one particle. It's estimated at about 280 trillion particles.

The energy adds up.
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Old 11-September-2008, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnD View Post
Report in today's New Scientist (13th Sept), necessarily written before the switch-on date, writes of the need for "beam dumps", where the packet of protons is directed down a side channel to impact in a "1000 tonne block of graphite, concerte and steel designed to absorb its energy".
What? Would even a packet from the LHC make a leaf flutter on impact?

Then, it says the such beam dumps will be "vital to prevent the protons drilling holes in the machine."
Really? Is the LHC such a death ray?

John
Even in much smaller Electron Accelerators (usually called Synchrotrons) with much lower Energies there are so called "beam stoppers" which are basicly massive water cooled copper blocks.
Already electrons from a electron beam welder can burn pin holes in steel sheets.
All the GeV's stored in the beam have to be converted into heat when the beam has to be stopped for some reasons. The calculation is relatively easy when you know the kinetic energy of the protons.
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Old 11-September-2008, 01:54 PM
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Is the LHC such a death ray?
I'd ask again to please keep this topic for news and not advocacy, pro or con.
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Old 11-September-2008, 03:57 PM
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Old 11-September-2008, 04:33 PM
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Ah. The real news...

The Economist: Off into the wild, blue yonder

Quote:
THE Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is a machine which will measure events that happen within a millionth of a billionth of a billionth of a second. What no one seems to be able to measure, though, even to an accuracy of several weeks, is when it really opens for business.[...]

The real news, of course, will come when CERN actually finds something. But then, too, the question of “when” will be moot. Scientific discoveries are only occasionally eureka moments. More often, the data have to be collected, reviewed, analysed statistically, found wanting, collected again and analysed again. Eventually, if all has gone well, a clear result will emerge. It then has to be written up, reviewed by critical peers and, if it passes review, published in a scientific journal.

That process is likely to be shorter for the LHC than it is for most scientific papers because the convention in physics is, increasingly, to do without peer review and post papers online, where all and sundry can tear them to shreds if they do not measure up. Moreover, promising but unconfirmed results are likely to leak—particularly if they concern the Higgs boson, the LHC’s famous first target. Scientists can be as garrulous in bars as politicians are.[...]
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Old 12-September-2008, 11:34 PM
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Maybe I should have put 'death ray' in quotes.
Maybe I should hoist a flag when I make a joke.
What would be a suitable flag? A red nose on a turnip?
But to explain a joke is to kill it, so I didn't and I won't.
You'll have to work it out for yourself.

Thank you AndreH for a serious explanation to a serious question.

John
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Old 12-September-2008, 11:51 PM
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Maybe I should have put 'death ray' in quotes.
Maybe I should hoist a flag when I make a joke.
What would be a suitable flag? A red nose on a turnip?










All work. Unfortunately, inflection and similar things do not work on a BB, for indicating humor. And neither does content - things that you would think no one would seriously post (and are therefore "obviously" humor) get posted all the time.
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Old 13-September-2008, 12:01 AM
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It's especially an issue for a subject like this, where some ridiculous things have been said, and some things have been taken too seriously.
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Old 13-September-2008, 12:29 AM
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If it's not one thing, it's another.

Hackers attack LHC

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Hackers have mounted an attack on the Large Hadron Collider, raising concerns about the security of the biggest experiment in the world as it passes an important new milestone...
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Old 13-September-2008, 12:41 AM
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If it's not one thing, it's another.

Hackers attack LHC
Just a comment on the article - that writer loves the word "vast," as in "vast smasher," "vast magnet," and "vast detector." It's all vast, I tell you!
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Old 13-September-2008, 05:07 AM
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Just a comment on the article - that writer loves the word "vast," as in "vast smasher," "vast magnet," and "vast detector." It's all vast, I tell you!
That writer may be subconsciously looking forward to Annual Talk Like a Pirate Day on September 19. Avast there!! ARRRR!!

BTW, there already is a thread in Off-Topic Babbling about this that will be brought ought of mothballs as the time approaches, me hearties!
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Old 13-September-2008, 02:20 PM
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I've been trying to come up with a "only half vast" joke, but the only thing it could apply to is the fear mongers. Sigh.

Fred
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Old 18-September-2008, 01:17 PM
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Just in the news: LHC has been shut off. Problem with cooling system reported. (I guess they talk about the cooling for the super conducting magnets).
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Old 18-September-2008, 03:40 PM
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Just in the news: LHC has been shut off. Problem with cooling system reported. (I guess they talk about the cooling for the super conducting magnets).
From the Times OnLine
Quote:
The Large Hadron Collider is ready to start smashing its first particles together early next week, after glitches with the £3.6 billion “big bang machine” were fixed by engineers.

Although scientists had hoped that the successful creation of the particle accelerator’s first beams last Wednesday would clear the way for trial collisions this week, the timetable has had to be delayed because of power failures that affected its cooling system.

The problems were resolved finally yesterday and the team was planning to resume circulating beams of protons around the 17-mile (27km) ring last night. The success should allow the two beams to be fired in opposite directions early next week, and then crashed together inside the vast detectors of the Large Hadron Collider (LHC).
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 18-September-2008, 04:51 PM
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so much to the news in my favourite radio station (which is one of the best when it comes to serious reporting). They made it sound as it was shut down, and it still is down. (at 14:00, GMT +2)


ETA: From the www.cern.de homepage:

Quote:
snip...The intervening time has been spent recovering cryogenic conditions after the failure of a power transformer on one of the surface points of the LHC switched off the main compressors of the cryogenics for two sectors of the machine. The transformer, weighing 30 tonnes and with a rating of 12 MVA, was exchanged over the weekend. During this process, the cryogenics system was put into a standby mode with the two sectors kept at around 4.5 K. Since the beginning of the week the cryogenics team have been busy re-cooling the magnets and preparing for operation with beam, which is currently forecast for today. The next stage of the commissioning will be single turn studies using beam one, followed by RF capture and circulating beam in both rings.

The LHC is on course for first collisions in a matter of weeks. Next update 24 September at the latest.
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Old 18-September-2008, 05:04 PM
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Last I heard about the LHC was from these webcam views.

http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html
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Old 18-September-2008, 05:39 PM
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 18-September-2008, 05:42 PM
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Last I heard about the LHC was from these webcam views.

http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html
Ok; that was funny the first time here.
And maybe some still chuckled the second time.

I just think it's getting old, and time to put it to rest.
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Old 18-September-2008, 05:44 PM
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Ok; that was funny the first time here.
And maybe some still chuckled the second time.

I just think it's getting old, and time to put it to rest.
You don't appreciate the classics?

ETA -
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Old 19-September-2008, 11:45 AM
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Hopefully the power transformer will be the last gadget to break for awhile. Does anybody know the status of LHC's funding? I know that US funding for particle physics research is in the toilet at the moment, and there was also talk of a similar situation in the UK.
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Old 19-September-2008, 03:25 PM
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Last I heard about the LHC was from these webcam views.

http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html
Lol, never saw that one before.
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Old 19-September-2008, 06:56 PM
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Hopefully the power transformer will be the last gadget to break for awhile.
That will depend on whether God needs a little more time to tweak the laws of physics so that they conform to physicists' expectations in order that His chosen people don't destroy themselves. . . .
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Old 19-September-2008, 07:00 PM
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That will depend on whether God needs a little more time to tweak the laws of physics so that they conform to physicists' expectations in order that His chosen people don't destroy themselves. . . .
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Old 19-September-2008, 07:25 PM
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Another small setback.

Quote:
..But those hopes were dashed by a series of “teething problems,” as one engineer put it, including the failure of a 30-ton transformer in the system for chilling the helium that, in turn, chills the superconducting magnets that guide the protons. On Friday, CERN announced that a large spill of helium in the collider tunnel would mean a further delay..
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Old 19-September-2008, 07:34 PM
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Wow! There really is a God!
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Old 19-September-2008, 08:16 PM
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Wow! There really is a God!
Now, now, don't let your obsession with teleology run away with you!
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Old 19-September-2008, 09:02 PM
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Another small setback.
Quote:
..But those hopes were dashed by a series of “teething problems,” as one engineer put it, including the failure of a 30-ton transformer in the system for chilling the helium that, in turn, chills the superconducting magnets that guide the protons. On Friday, CERN announced that a large spill of helium in the collider tunnel would mean a further delay..
The spokesperson for CERN gave the announcement in a really high pitched voice.
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Old 19-September-2008, 10:54 PM
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The spokesperson for CERN gave the announcement in a really high pitched voice.
Well, let's thank God that nobody died at least!
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Old 20-September-2008, 06:40 AM
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looks like the helium leak was but a small part of a larger problem

Quote:
Plans to begin smashing particles at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) may be delayed after a magnet failure forced engineers to halt work.

The failure, known as a quench, caused around 100 of the LHC's super-cooled magnets to heat up by as much as 100C.

The fire brigade were called out after a tonne of liquid helium leaked into the tunnel at Cern, near Geneva.
A tonne? that's alot of helium.
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Old 20-September-2008, 01:05 PM
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It looks like it could be shut down for a couple of months.

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Old 20-September-2008, 02:28 PM
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it's funny to call the "fire brigade" when the magnets heat up to less than 100 degrees (C) below (not absolute) 0. I assume the "by 100 degrees C" from, presumably, liquid-helium temperature, is not a misstatement, of course!
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Old 20-September-2008, 02:41 PM
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According to my calculations, one metric ton of liquid helium is about 8,000 liters (~ 2,000 gallons). What a mess.
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