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  #121 (permalink)  
Old 10-October-2008, 11:16 AM
grant hutchison grant hutchison is offline
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Originally Posted by Vultur View Post
Good, because 210 kg is a LOT more believable than 70 kg (that's what a lot of that Witton & Naish work is about). I don't even see where that estimate came from -- how can something 4 meters tall with a 2-meter skull and a 12-meter wingspan weigh as much as a small human?
Yeah. As Witton & Naish point out, even with the very high degree of bone pneumatization we know about, we're left requiring soft tissue densities that are a fraction of those found in living animals. How do you make flight muscles a quarter the density of water?

Grant Hutchison
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  #122 (permalink)  
Old 11-October-2008, 08:47 AM
Vultur Vultur is offline
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Exactly. And there doesn't seem any reason to think they'd be that light. Why should they have such low wing-loadings? There's no reason to believe they were long-distance soar-without-flapping types. Maybe they flew to get away from tyrannosaurs and travel over rivers, hills, forests, etc., but just walked on flat plains?
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Old 11-October-2008, 03:34 PM
grant hutchison grant hutchison is offline
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Originally Posted by Vultur View Post
There's no reason to believe they were long-distance soar-without-flapping types. Maybe they flew to get away from tyrannosaurs and travel over rivers, hills, forests, etc., but just walked on flat plains?
Well, the reason to think they're soar-without-flapping types goes back to the observations reported in the OP, as well as theoretical stuff that's been around for a while. The energy cost of flapping flight seems to scale as a greater-than-unity power of body mass; whereas the cost of soaring scales as a less-than-unity power.
There's going to be an upper limit of body mass at which the energy cost of flapping flight exceeds the maximal exercise capacity of the beast involved: a descending spiral of increasing flight muscle weight and decreasing aerodynamic performance.

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  #124 (permalink)  
Old 12-October-2008, 07:31 AM
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PraedSt PraedSt is offline
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A bit more on pterosaur flight and control.

Most importantly, like most fliers, all Pterosaurs could deform their wings and move them independently. Other adaptations:

The earliest Pterosaurs, the small Rhamphorhynchoids, had long tails which acted much like the long tail of a cheetah I think. Many also had vanes at the end of their tails, which might have acted like rudders.

A short but good discussion on vanes and wing deformation by two biologists:
http://www.askabiologist.org.uk/punb...ic.php?id=1282
And the wiki page on Rhamphorhynchoids has good pictures on the right hand side:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhamphorhynchoidea


The later Pterosaurs, the Pterodactyloids, lost their tails, perhaps trading some stability for greater manoeuvrability.

A few, like the large Pteranodon developed large cranial crests.
http://museumvictoria.com.au/prehist...teranodon.html
This perhaps worked directly as a rudder:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1303424
or indirectly as a balance for the head:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2417241 (Sorry, last two are abstracts)
The wiki page for pteranodon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pteranodon

My view is that having a large control surface in front of the centre of gravity is asking for trouble. Unless you are sailing, of course. Then, that is exactly where you would want a control surface to be:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyctosaurus
http://dinosaurs.about.com/od/aviand...yctosaurus.htm

Imagine! A sail on a bird!
Having said that, a quick perusal of the literature shows that there is no consensus on the use of Nyctosaurus's large cranial crest.


Finally, the large Azhdarchids. I'm curious about their flight stability (see above posts), while in Grant's excellent reference (reproduced here) http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0002271 the author says they might not have been stable on water.
Quote:
Extant swimming and diving birds also hold their heads close to or above their centre of buoyancy when alighted on the water surface, but the anatomy of azhdarchid cervical vertebrae disallows the possibility of holding the neck at a high angle and may have created issues of stability if the animal were to alight on the water surface
Finally, the sheer lift generation of pterosaur wings, seems to be (almost) beyond dispute. Even the heaviest Azhdarchids had acceptable wing loadings (above discussion by Grant and Vultur). So soaring flight, given favourable wind conditions (nod to OP article), appears to be the minimum flight capability of the pterosaurs.

Last edited by PraedSt; 12-October-2008 at 10:05 AM.. Reason: Grammar
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  #125 (permalink)  
Old 12-October-2008, 07:47 AM
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PraedSt PraedSt is offline
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Annoying nitpicking post:
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Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
But you're saying that the swan is using that little short tail with some sort of unusual reversed curvature in order to produce significant downward "lift"? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm pretty surprised
Yeah, reversed curvature would be wrong of me. It's just that camber, while desirable, is not necessary for generating lift, especially if we're taking about secondary control surfaces. All you need is a positive angle of attack (or negative in this case).

And this is nitpicking, because I know you know this: you mentioned flat plates earlier in this thread

Also, to choose a different example, aircraft can fly upside down...
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  #126 (permalink)  
Old 12-October-2008, 01:30 PM
grant hutchison grant hutchison is offline
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Originally Posted by PraedSt View Post
Yeah, reversed curvature would be wrong of me. It's just that camber, while desirable, is not necessary for generating lift, especially if we're taking about secondary control surfaces. All you need is a positive angle of attack (or negative in this case).
Yes, I wasn't clear about it, but I was guessing you wanted your swan to be airworthy without motors.
Flat-plate lift produces a lot of drag, so you would be turning that little tail into a sort of airbrake, producing a levering moment along the length of the swan in order to keep its head up. Given a swan's difficulty getting into the air in the first place, that would seem to be rather cruel.

Grant Hutchison
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  #127 (permalink)  
Old 12-October-2008, 03:16 PM
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PraedSt PraedSt is offline
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Lol. Shame I'm not royalty...
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