So in other words, they were given three criteria, met two of them, and their circle was declared genuine by people who didn't know they'd done it. Well done.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

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Hi Gillianren, thanx your contact. Feel we may have some crossed wires, so to speak.
The MIT students experiment did work. My point is they used microwave radiation and
blasting iron ferrite onto the site to replicate a genuine crop circle.
My proposal is, there is more to this than we can understand at this point in time.
You have a fertile mind, and I am against bad science, perhaps we may confer together.
Nokton.

Ah, but you claim it's evidence of a genuine crop circle. According to whom? The fact is, "cereologists" have been fooled. It's been established in more than one analysis. I don't think it's generally in a controlled experiment, in that they generally find the circle before they find the people who made it, but all those "requirements" have been claimed in board-and-rope circles. I am not impressed.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

You have already made up your mind that a 'genuine' crop circle exists.

That is not 'good' science.

So - please do give us your criteria of a 'genuine' crop circle.

Can I make two points?

If circle makers pay the farmer for his lost income from ruined crops, fine, but if they are interstellar visitors - we don't take cheques.

If they are non-paying Earthlings, then this happens:
http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/ne...nds-in-gunfire

Please note, this is not in a gun-owning US state, but in WILTSHIRE!

John

From memory:
Of shoes and ships and sealing wax,
of cabbages and kings,
of why the sea is boiling hot
and whether pigs have wings.

I always wished for a crop circle with a logarithmic spiral design, but I have yet to see one, Admittedly I don't go looking at every reported crop pattern, so I can't say if they've been done, but I think their scarcity is an argument for elementary rope compass and guys with a board construction techniques, as they are difficult to constrict with those instruments though they're mathematically beautiful and the mathematical beauty and perfection has been used to argue for non-human origins.

__________________
‘To those who regard “crime fiction” as some sacred icon which must follow a rigid formula, I will always be the man who writes 18-syllable haiku.’Trying to make sense of computers, The Error Log.

On another forum, I was having this debate. Someone posted a link to a crop circle with a supposed 'woven' texture that supposedly appeared in a 30 minute window. 'Impossible' claimed this person.

I studied the image for 10 seconds and immediately, it's construction was quite obvious. I estimated the size of the circle, and calculated the 'trampling' distance required to create the entire pattern assuming a 1 meter wide board and a team of three people. It infact averaged only 20m/minute of trampling. An easy achievement.

Then - to my amazement - the same person also claimed ' it was raining - why is there no mud on the crops'.

The fact that a perfectly normal, simple, common explanation for the 'mud' was in the question itself, and the circle was so quick and easy to explain - it just leaves me wondering what 'exactly' do crop circle specialists ' study'. Because in this one case, where 'how could people have made this' was their conclusion - the answer was just so frickin' obvious.

http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/2...field2009.html was the circle.

Below, my response.

Knowledge and understanding is not dictated by personal experience alone, or how would
we be educated. Rather, it is drawing on the knowledge and experience of others that
gives us insight into the bigger picture. I have never been to Africa, or seen a whale,
but am familiar with both because of someone else recording their experience and
transmitting it via a media I understand. Whether that media is a serious science
programme on Sky or cable, or the internet, matters little.
The point is, I have an open mind and the intelligence to evaluate the infomation
to form a conclusion.
My evaluation is that there is more to this crop circle phenomenon than current understanding of science can explain.
Back to square one, what we don't understand we trash, was always so.
History is awash with examples of the persecution of people that strayed from
current belief.
Your choice of the colour purple amuses me, a crimson dye obtained from a mollusc,
and used as a dye in the fabric worn by an emporer in ancient Rome.
Nokton

Meet me in confluence, you are a writer, would you write that what you believed was
false, because there was no explanation for it? I think not, you are better than that.
You misunderstood me, perhaps was remiss in my explanation, forgive me for that.
Would enjoy further dialogue with you about who we are, think you understand the question. Hope you do,
Nokton

Nokton - you're avoiding the issue here. Where is your evidence. You have been asked by multiple people, multiple times, to produce it.

I wouldn't write that it was true, certainly. I would write that it was what I believed. As it stands, I have seen no evidence to suggest that crop circles are caused by anything other than humans.

__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Hi dj, thankyou your response. I never avoid an issue, not in my nature. What is in
my nature is to challenge false ideas both in science and evolution.
Have failed on the evolution front, why? Because damn it, the god ideology creates
a scenario of divine creation, and the atheists are in an adversarial position.
There is no middle ground for reason or new concepts of evolution, stalemate.
Please, look at bltresearch.com. The science there is a matter of record and evaluation.
dj, have been reading books on science and nature for 70 years, been reading
New Scientist for 40 of those, if I thought for one moment that genuine crop circles
were a hoax, would not be here. The info you need is on the site addy I gave you.
Respect,
Nokton

Well, first off, all that evolution stuff is avoiding the issue, because it's completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Second, as I told you, those links don't work.

Third, define "genuine." Start by defining what makes a "genuine" crop circle in the first place. And I don't mean attributes.

__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Hi tash, the circle patterns have been observed in the snow of the arctic, so spraying
not an issue, nor is wheat. We speculate and dream up reasons for what we do not
understand, in the belief that we can explain everything. Never is the phrase ' I do not understand' ever promulgated. We are awash in our understanding because of our arrogence. We think we know it all. The sad fact is, that we dont is about to destroy us.
Nokton

I'm not sure if English is perhaps a second language for you - but let me ask you once again....

Please provide evidence, in this thread, for a crop circle not made by humans.

You into objective science research? Genuine crop circles have definitive qualities that
expose ropes and boards as a fake representation and a mimic of the genuine fact.
How do ropes and boards create expulsion cavities in the wheat stem, drain the
batteries of photographers there, and create magnetic anomolies in the soil?
They don't
Sorry, thought this site was about science, and bad science and bad astronomy
was the reason Phil created this site, Phil is a visionary who exposed bad science.
Where is the season now? In the realms of those who have not the wit to understand,
or those here who would seek to put contributers and posters into boxes they decide,
and no parameters evaluated or considered.
You betray everything Phil was about.
Am out of here

Wow! That was a response to my post from more than two weeks ago about why crop circles in Russia aren't as elaborate as those in the UK. And I think the BA would agree he's got it exactly backward about this site.

Having been asked repeatedly for evidence to back his claims, he's provided none whatever; just repeated unverifiable claims of "expulsion cavities" and magnetic anomalies. I've actually seen (on TV) some "cerealogists" exclaiming over expulsion cavities, saying it proved the extraterrestrial origin of a circle which was shown on the same program being made with boards and ropes. It's rather like a moon hoax discussion.

Do you suppose Nokton is really "out of here"?

__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

Hi Trebuchet, nice touch, one thing I am about, is not the creators of crop
circles, but the way they are created. Planks do not fill the bill.
Understanding the why, is open to question. Perhaps hindsight reveal
something.
Why are the soil samples so different at genuine sites, why is radiation
sapping the batteries of independant observers?
Am appalled you not know what causes expulsion cavities in wheat. A well
documented fact.
When I said was out of here, meant the thread. I have never come across
such a narrow minded response to a pertinent post.
Let me put it this way, and I hope the moderators will indulge me,
[Religious references removed by moderator]
Those same people now claim the science sourced from crop circles is false.
Bit like intelligent design proves a god, it does not, why? Because intelligent
design is beyond our comprehension.
We are so primitive in our understanding it beggers belief. The human mind is
locked in the past, with wiches, demons, and all the baggage of religious belief
that has no purchase with scientific thinking. Dwell on this, there is no historical
evidence that supports Abrahams existance.
Ok, leave you with this, could a singularity at the centre of a supermasive black
hole explode, interesting.

Firstly- cut out the religious nonsense.

Secondly - this is just words - please provide data, actual evidence. not just your words.

__________________
Brett
Peters Creek, Alaska
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I would think that if an extra-terrestrial were to bother coming all the way to this planet, they would do something a little more impressive than to graffiti up someones hay field.

It would be like NASA sending astronauts to the moon so Neil Armstrong could pee his initials into the regolith. Actually, that would be more impressive. Bad example

Now if the aliens managed to carve an alien head onto Mount Rushmore, or replace the Statue of Liberty with a full sized solid titanium and naked replica, then I would be impressed.

__________________
"The universe is driven by the complex interaction between three ingredients: matter, energy, and enlightened self-interest." - G'Kar

Many circle makers use lawn rollers in addition to boards.

__________________
Be very, very careful what you put into that head, because you will never, ever get it out. ---Cardinal Wolsey (1475-1530)

What's funny is that these so called Crop Circle 'Experts' have classified as 'IMPOSSIBLE' a crop circle that was documented as being made by people.

Nokton, assuming you still wish to participate in the thread, I am sufficiently intrigued that I would like to know more about what you think and why you think that. It's pretty clear we are unlikely to convince each other, but a little understanding always helps. If you can't answer the questions without violating the "no religion" rule, a PM is fine.

1. Do you agree that at least some crop circles are of purely human origin, i.e. pranksters with ropes and boards?
2. For those not of human origin (what you've referred to as genuine crop circles), how and by whom do you believe they are made? Are they made by extraterrestrials? Or by earthly, but supernatural, beings?
3. Is someone trying to tell us something? If so, what?
4. Is there some sort of coverup going on by government, a cabal of scientists, or ???

And since I've asked what you think, it's only fair to tell you what I think, although that should be pretty clear already. I think all of the elaborate crop circles we see are created by human beings, pranksters/vandals using simple tools. (No GPS, sorry Tashirosgt.) A few very simple circular features in crops may also have been created by weather phenomena.

To the mods: This thread has wandered far from the original subject. Perhaps the discussions with Nokton should be split off into something in either ATM or Conspiracy theories.

__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

Thankyou Trebuchet for the spirit of your contact with me. I will do my best to
answer the questions you ask of me.
1, yes, many crop circles are the result of pranksters.
2, At this time, am not interested in the creators, just understanding the means.
3, This question I like Trebuchet. Maybe, consider this, if extraterrestrials did manifest
themselves openly, what would be the consequences? World wide panic, stock market
collapse, et all, and chaos for the human race, who would be thinking are they friend or
foe.
In response to your pertinent questions, watched a programme on cable, think it
was national geo, about the research into genuine crop circles. Certain anomolies
were portrayed on camera, point was, the video camera blanked out at 500 feet,
and the helicopter instruments went berserk, only out of the field did the pilot regain
control.
The expulsion cavities in the wheat stem I spoke of are caused by the super heating
of the moisture within the stem, by what means I have no knowledge.
Soil samples from genuine sites reveal iron particles not present in 'plank' sites
and evidence of microwave radiation, also not found on 'plank' sites.
And no, I do not believe in a 'cover up' of any kind.
What I do find intriguing is that in my country, UK, many observers with night vision
equipment saw nothing until the morning, when the crop circle was there. Anyone with
a plank would have been toast.
Many thanks your contact and questions, appreciate.
Nokton

I find it intriguing that I've NEVER, not ONCE seen this oft repeated claim actually documented for real. Never.

Show me actual proof that a crop circle has just 'appeared' and eliminated any possibility of human creation.

"I saw this show on cable" doesn't actually provide much in the way of useful information. Just so you know.

__________________
Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Nokton, either you are remembering a different program or you didn't watch all of the National Geographic special. It did spend about the first half presenting what appeared to be evidence of genuine non-human crop circles, including experts talking about the expulsion cavities. The second half, however, firmly destroyed all of that and concluded there is no evidence of non-human origins for crop circles. NatGeo took much the same approach with their moon hoax program, featuring our own Jay Utah.

To the best of my recollection, the NatGeo show was where I saw the experts looking at wheat and saying the expulsion cavities proved non-human origin -- only the wheat was from a circle later shown to have been made by humans for the show.

So, based on the evidence I've seen, I come to the same conclusion.

By the way, since you feel that my attitude towards circles is not in keeping with this site, you might want to go over to the BA blog (just click in the "Bad Astronomy" area above) and enter "crop circle" into the search window. I have not actually done that yet either but will do so at lunch time. I'd wager you'll find the BA's evaluation of circles is not in favor or non-human origins.

__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

That is one piece of data that I have never seen the "experts" explain.
Why is an expulsion cavity non-human?
How does an expulsion cavity form? I can't even find a non-crop circle site that even mentions what an expulsion cavity is.

I see nothing more than a weak spot in a tubular structure where the compression forces of bending that tube forces the fibers outward.

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Numbers are not case sensitive. (me)