For almost fifty years I've been looking at argentine ants so when they start acting pecular it becomes kind of obvious.

I first noticed this two months ago.

I think this is relavent to a new pesticide I discovered about 18 months ago.

Terro Liquid Ant Bait. The stuff rocks for getting rid of invasive ant colonies. One of the packets of death juice, (simple sugar and boric acid) can kill a large colony in three days. Which I thought was too long, then found out that three packets will kill a same size colony in roughly twentyfour hours. Ten juice packets per box which runs about five dollers. I stock up.

In the first 6 months I killed 37 large colonies intruding into my kitchen, hence my need for pesticides. The colony members would all slow down, then the majority would disappear, then I would see minums foraging haphazardly and I'd know the colony was destroyed. I hated doing it but I didn't have much choice. They would overrun terrariums on occasion, being small enough to fit through the screening. I lost more crabs that way than I'd care to think about.

Then the rate slowed down to about two colonies a month.

And now the strangeness.

The latest colonies to intrude act differently than any other argentine ant colonies I've every had come into my house.

I saw a column about three inchs wide coming from a wall to the garbage can, (chicken bones from the night before) and I went "Oh boy, here we go again." But when I turned on the light and at the noise of my footsteps the whole column suddenly when into panic mode, ran in circles then completely disappeared from view in about ten seconds.

I was dumbfounded.

They don't do that. Ever. They are pretty oblivious to people unless you're in their face. And this was from a full two long paces away.

The only other time I've ever seen argentine ants move in that exact manner before was when they detected an alien ant species in thier area. And then it preceeded a devastating attack on the alien species. A wierd jerky motion, only fast, not at all like when you spray a column.

I considered they may be a new species, but decided no. Crazy ants are yellower. These are the same raisin color as the normal behaving ants, same size and shape. And argentines are seriously intolerent of other ant species anywhere within smelling distance. And they are still plentiful in the surrounding area. So I'm presuming a new behavior.

I'll move something and see a column and they run away and don't come back. They are beginning to act like roachs. And they are not a big fan of the bait either.

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In your rush to call everyone "entrenched" or closed-minded or "limited" you fail to note that the "limit" here has a very natural boundary: that point at which the evidence stops. - JayUtah

Science fiction was never meant to be an educational tool. - Editor Amazing Tales

Natural selection in action? Perhaps you have been selecting for ants that have human-avoidance behavior.

Nick

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--
Nick Theodorakis

When they start constructing sand monuments of you...that's when you need to start worrying.

Great. So when Argentine ants take over the world, we know it's BigDon's fault! Nice going!



CJSF

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Two years ago moved from my town
I was looking up past the city lights
But the city lights got in my way

See the constellation ride across the sky
No cigar, no lady on his arm
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-from "See The Constellation"
by They Might Be Giants

Call the local extension office or university??

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"What you think you thought you saw you did not see." Agent J, MiB - Manhatten Bureau

I still wonder if it might be a new species, just not a yellower one (I don't know West Coast ant species).

Drop ABR. a PM to take a look at this thread. - EDIT - I just did

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Big Don,
Interesting observation, but you have killed 37 colonies?
That's almost like 37 individuals.
Ants aren't clones, just very similar genetically, so really 37 families.
Even that can't lead to evolution of any sort, Nick.

John

County:

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I don't think a behavior change represents an evolutionary one. (Jimminy crickets! There is a HUGE dogfight going on outside. BRB.)

__________________
In your rush to call everyone "entrenched" or closed-minded or "limited" you fail to note that the "limit" here has a very natural boundary: that point at which the evidence stops. - JayUtah

Science fiction was never meant to be an educational tool. - Editor Amazing Tales

Wow! Just wow.

Somebodys pitbull got loose and an enormous mastiff was altering the local landscape with him. Bashing in car panels, setting off alarms and snapping off real estate signs at ground level. There's pieces of dog on the ground! And fur bits stuck in fences and stuff!

And nobody died! The pit didn't want to play anymore when the lady got her mastiff off him and the pit's owners showed up about then, but acted like adults and everybody was exchanging info when I came back in. No cops either!

The pit is messed up but I think the right vet can save him. He's going to need some re-upholstery work done. On the other hand, I don't think the mastiff's owner knows this yet, it's dark outside and she's still shocky, but I think her dog lost about half his left ear. Hope he wasn't a show dog. He's gorgeous.

Now ants!

Yeah, I think it's a behavioral change. Should have been clearer

Can a mod add "Behavior" to the title? Thank you.

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In your rush to call everyone "entrenched" or closed-minded or "limited" you fail to note that the "limit" here has a very natural boundary: that point at which the evidence stops. - JayUtah

Science fiction was never meant to be an educational tool. - Editor Amazing Tales

Not sure if the Argentine ant is a relative to the red fire ant, but when I used to live in Texas, the fire ant range was taking over the Texas two step. I found the fire ants loved the simple way of traveling under the well protective slab. The plumbing lines provided soft soil or sand and made them a super highway. I would spray around the foundation and under all plumbed areas (i.e., kitchen, bathrooms) with a 9-month or 9,000-year defensive solution from my local hardware or drug store, wherever poison is found. This would only "somewhat" slow thier progress. Some ants tended to change from alive to dead and some still walked around in a stuper til I didn't see them anymore. Ants also tend to pick up thier deceased until there are no more picker uppers. This is all after many painful and itchy bites that blister, hence "fire" ants.

Not relatives and both species will fight until their nests are exhausted. And mine don't bite (live) people.

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In your rush to call everyone "entrenched" or closed-minded or "limited" you fail to note that the "limit" here has a very natural boundary: that point at which the evidence stops. - JayUtah

Science fiction was never meant to be an educational tool. - Editor Amazing Tales

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A few things Don, if the behavior is repeatable, you may want to contact the extension service of your area and let them know. Behavior changes like that are usually and indication that the colony is 'Stressed'. If it;s do to some species adaptingto be able to handel the Argenties or use them as food, the extention service would be most intrested in that.

Argentine ants are cool, they are the only species besides humans that raise cattle. In their case they raise aphids as cattle for the nectar the aphids produce.

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Hey BigDon. When I lived in the Central Valley proper, we had argentine ant colonies invade the house pretty frequently. We used Terro as well, but not in the bait trap form. You can buy a small bottle and put drops on pieces of cardboard/paper. My wife got very good at watching where the ants would come into the house and then placing the bait in their way. No colony lasted more than a couple days after that. I never saw a change in behavior like you are describing and the argentines never could resist the Terro.

Where I live now, we have a big problem with odorous house ants. They will take Terro, but it doesn't seem to faze them. I've tried other baits to no avail. These little buggers really annoy me, but I haven't had time to declare a proper war. One night, the smoke alarm went off for no apparent reason (no smoke!). I took it down and discovered that the ants had found it and a couple unlucky ones had managed to complete a circuit, setting off the alarm and getting fried in the process. That would be an effective, but rather slow way to deal with a colony. I have noticed that when they get spooked, they will act similarly to what you described.

I agree with the suggestions that this is merely a change in behavior -- either the colony is spooked for a reason you haven't seen or maybe they are getting just enough of the Terro to mess with their nervous system, but not enough to kill off the colony. Then again, maybe the colony was down to a single queen and you killed her already. I really don't know much about the argentines except that Terro works in the short term, but in the long, they are particularly difficult to deal with because they form supercolonies (multiple queens). There was a study done on this recently which discussed argentines from South America vs. ones from North America and also ones from Australia, if I remember correctly. I'm away from my literature right now, but I'll try to check on this in a couple of weeks if you're still having issues. Also, your local extension agent is going to know far more about such things than I. Then again, it sounds like you already do, too!

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So many bugs, so little thyme.

I should add for the non-Californians on the forum that discussion of invading argentine ants usually means the rainy season has started. The Bad Astronomer had a blog post about argentine ants damaging a printer awhile back, as I recall.

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So many bugs, so little thyme.

BigDon and ABR,

Have you heard of / do you know much about using certain types of nematodes to control ants and other pests? I don't have much data myself because I have never looked into it, but I have one anecdote.

My wife was tired of paying for insecticides to fight our ant problem. We live in Florida and it is basically a war of attrition with ants. One morning I stumbled out of bed into the bathroom, flipped on the lights, and had a real Alfred Hitchcock moment. Ants decided to start a colony in our bathroom overnight. There where ants literally covering the walls, floors and ceilings. They where carrying their larva and eggs with them and depositing them all under the bath mat in front of the shower door.

Anyway, so the wife read about seeding your lawn with a mix of nematodes to control ants, and a list of other pests. She decided to give it a try and, to make a long story short, it seems to have worked fairly well for about two years now with, I think, one round of seeding. I did not carefully observe what was going on, so take this with a grain of salt.

But, maybe you know something already about the effectiveness of nematodes for pest control and can comment on that? Or, maybe look into it and give it a try.

Funny that you should mention nematodes....

In other words, BigDon has some experience along those lines but I do not.

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So many bugs, so little thyme.

Perhaps it's giving them hangovers...

So, the ones that survived were probably not liking the bait, either, and passed that dislike to their offspring...

And the ones that survived your stomping were scurriers, rather than stalworts, and pass that behavior to their offspring...

Evolution at work!

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If I set the budget, we'd have Ares and more. Unfortunately, I don't set the budget, and Ares is just too expensive and too far out for us to accomplish our goals within the budget we were given.

If we halt the ISS, all versions of Ares, and transport Orion and Altair aboard DIRECTv3's Jupiter family of Shuttle-Derived Launch Vehicles, we just might make it back to the Moon by 2020.

Except the workers don't pass on anything - they don't have offspring.

CJSF

__________________
Two years ago moved from my town
I was looking up past the city lights
But the city lights got in my way

See the constellation ride across the sky
No cigar, no lady on his arm
Just a guy made of dots and lines

-from "See The Constellation"
by They Might Be Giants

I never have indoor problems with ants in the midwest. But a few years ago, when I was gone for a week, I came back to discover they aunts had started/moved a colony into the backseat of my car. I had a box of work papers and accidentally left some candy back there. A can of Raid did the trick.

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"What you think you thought you saw you did not see." Agent J, MiB - Manhatten Bureau

Behaviour change implies either learning or genetic change.
If you killed all the previous colonies - or rather kileld the queen, then no opportuntiy for learning, so only genetics remain.

John

But John, I'm merely reporting what's happening.

What's your explaination, given the above information? I'm not putting out an ATM idea, I'm going "Hey, something weird is going on here!" Are you telling me something weird is not going on here?

__________________
In your rush to call everyone "entrenched" or closed-minded or "limited" you fail to note that the "limit" here has a very natural boundary: that point at which the evidence stops. - JayUtah

Science fiction was never meant to be an educational tool. - Editor Amazing Tales

I, too, have been at war with the argentine ants that have been trying to invade the kitchen and study areas that overly plumbing. They initially replaced a slighty larger black ant species with similar foraging behaviour. After killing many invader colonies, it seems like the black ant is back and I am having to kill them as well, but they are less aggressive in taking baits. So maybe you are having some replacement effect too.

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plenty of woo, at the hotel hoagaland...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0667945/

[When his research project is closed down, Simon Kress rescues a few of its living subjects and transplants them to a recreation of their native Martian environment in his barn. They grow and learn, but then Kress makes an error with disastrous implications.'

or feed them too.

FYI, Sandkings was a story by George R. R. Martin, published in the August 1979 issue of Omni. It won both the Hugo and Nebula awards, and was way better than the Outer Limits version.

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smile, and the Universe smiles with you

Perhaps it's like bacteria.

Most the weak ones were killed off, leaving only the Human-Resistant Strains.

Sorry, Don, you were indeed reporting, not theorising.
Others suggested 'evolution in action'.
For instance, Neverfly, you need to remember that an ant colony is genetically one individual, the queen, unlike a colony of bacteria where every individual can reproduce. The numbers are several orders of magnitude apart.
The behaviour of ants is complex and sophisticated, and the subject of much work (For instnace, see: http://www.complexity.org.au/ci/vol0.../nakamura.html) to try to find out how it is changed and why. Certainly, different food sources and threats to the nest will cause ants to modify their tactics. My speculation is that a colony stressed by the effect of formicides will change behaviour.

JOhn

Good point, so there doesn't seem to be a direct connection between behaviors from the more scurrying survivors.

However, the female (queen) they feed, does produce offspring. In high doses the compound kills the queen, hence the colony. In lower doses, it probably affects genetic expression to one degree or another, as do many toxic chemicals. Whether this results in changed behavior (like scurrying) remains to be seen. However, if a queen produces more scurriers, regardless of the method, that colony will be more likely to survive than its more stalwart competitors.

It's still a marked change in behavior between successive generations.

BD: Have you reported this to your local university? They may be interested in studying this phenomenon.

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If I set the budget, we'd have Ares and more. Unfortunately, I don't set the budget, and Ares is just too expensive and too far out for us to accomplish our goals within the budget we were given.

If we halt the ISS, all versions of Ares, and transport Orion and Altair aboard DIRECTv3's Jupiter family of Shuttle-Derived Launch Vehicles, we just might make it back to the Moon by 2020.

Actually, the original title is cute. My initial thought was, aren't the ants embarassed if you watch them while they're changing?

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As above, so below