Time to radically revise SETI?

[Toymaker]

Ok. Here are my thoughts.
I think its time to radically revise SETI. It's assumptions and dogma are very outdated and they don't hold together when analysed.
Basically SETI searches for delibrate radio signals sent to us, with the aim of contacting Earth. SETI does not search for TV or radio signals by aliens-they would be too weak to receive and too unlikely to happen. The whole SETI dogma is based on very weak foundations-that A-there is a nearby very developed alien civilization B-that is knows of our existance or desires to send radio signals all over the gallaxy C-that it sends us radio signals of enormous strenght(this also assumes they know of our technological level).

Now all of this looks more like 50s SF story than current state of knowledge we posses.
We know that we are reducing radio emissions, we know that is rather unlikely that alien civilizations are nearby and near our technology level. We know that we as civlization hardly care for sending delibrate radio signals all over Galaxy-why should aliens care?

So I think that SETI modus operandi needs to be updated taking into account modern developments.
The search for radio signals in all likelyhood is fruitless. Too much distance, too many assumptions, too much outdated theories.
What we do know is that we can already spot exoplanets. And that our ability to observe space is growing year by year. SETI should concentrate on finding optical signs of alien civilizations-Dyson Spheres, Star Lifting, but also help develop new generation telescopes like Planet Imager, New Worlds Observer that will allow us to detect signs of civilization on other planets.

What do you think?

[baric]

Keep in mind that we are not scanning for stray signals simply generated by the workings of an alien civilization. We are instead looking for active attempts to contact us. This is why SETI focuses on certain bandwidths... they represent an educated guess as to what another intelligent civilization would feel is a good mode of communication.

If there are alien races out there, there's a good chance that they know our system has biological life. They would also understand that the technology curve is steep and dangerous, so that their window for communication could conceivably be very short if we cannot properly manage it.

Therefore, if they are out there, I think that they would be trying to contact us. That they are not instead visiting us is a strong indication that interstellar travel is not practical, so they would have little to fear from establishing communication.

The questions boil down to "is there anyone out there?", "how would they contact us?", "how would we recognize it?", and "what are they trying to say?"

Looking for purely speculative artifacts like Dyson Spheres and the effects of Star Lifting would be an extravagant waste of the limited resources currently available to SETI. It would be like telling Einstein and Planck to drop what they were doing and focus all of their brainpower on the Martian canals.

[Toymaker]

Keep in mind that we are not scanning for stray signals simply generated by the workings of an alien civilization. We are instead looking for active attempts to contact us.

That's exactly my point which I noted in my post. SETI assumes direct attempt at contact.

This is why SETI focuses on certain bandwidths... they represent an educated guess as to what another intelligent civilization would feel is a good mode of communication.

Why would a civilization try to contact us? The window of opportunity is small, the benefits little, and the effort huge. Our civilization doesn't engage in such attempts besides sporadic attempts by amateurs.
Furthermore this assumes a relatively close existance of any civilization.

In all-a lot of assumptions based on high hopes.

Therefore, if they are out there, I think that they would be trying to contact us.

Why? Like mentioned before-our civilization isn't spending all its time trying to send immense radio signals to all stars in Galaxy where we think life can exist.

Looking for purely speculative artifacts like Dyson Spheres and the effects of Star Lifting would be an extravagant waste of the limited resources currently available to SETI.

Actually compared to costs of current SETI projects, the search for star lifting and Dyson Spheres would be considerably cheaper.

It would be like telling Einstein and Planck to drop what they were doing and focus all of their brainpower on the Martian canals.

A very flawed comparision. You really think of the outdated 50s models(nearby civilizations, constant attempts to contact us) that SETI is pursuing as equivelent to thoughts of Einstein?

[baric]

That's exactly my point which I noted in my post. SETI assumes direct attempt at contact.

Fair enough

Why would a civilization try to contact us? The window of opportunity is small, the benefits little, and the effort huge. Our civilization doesn't engage in such attempts besides sporadic attempts by amateurs.
Furthermore this assumes a relatively close existance of any civilization.

Why would they try and contact us? For the very same reasons we are searching for them! Do you not believe that they would have scientists and people in their civilization fascinated (as we are) with the universe and their place in it? Making contact with an authentically independently-evolved civilization would be an amazing opportunity to increase that knowledge.

If we found clear evidence of a planet with biological life, I can guarantee you that there would be a movement on this planet to begin sending signals to it.

In all-a lot of assumptions based on high hopes.

That statement applies to most scientific research.

Why? Like mentioned before-our civilization isn't spending all its time trying to send immense radio signals to all stars in Galaxy where we think life can exist.

That is correct. It's inefficient. But if there was a planet that we knew had life, I think we would.

Actually compared to costs of current SETI projects, the search for star lifting and Dyson Spheres would be considerably cheaper.

The search for Martian canals was also very cheap. The point is that those are only hypothetical ideas.

A very flawed comparision. You really think of the outdated 50s models(nearby civilizations, constant attempts to contact us) that SETI is pursuing as equivelent to thoughts of Einstein?

It was an analogy about the misappropriation of resources. Ultimately, however, SETI is funded by private individuals, not the federal government.

If SETI researchers suddenly decided to spend that money on activities that did not involve establishing contact, those private individuals would simply stop funding them and find new SETI researchers.

[Toymaker]

Why would they try and contact us? For the very same reasons we are searching for them!

You yourself noted that the search is funded largely by private investors not by governments. So as you see, finding other life is not the priority of our civilisation(like it or not). And I bolded out the search part-we simply aren't sending out numerous signals of enormous strenght towards the skies(besides a few amateur attempts). Why should other civilizations do so? This is another assumption that SETI has made in order to justify its search-an assumption that has no real backing.

That statement applies to most scientific research.

Most scientifc research concerns observable events, objects and entities. SETI is based on pure speculation so far. Please do mind, that I do not believe this is without any worth-simply that at current level of our understanding SETI is a relic of past misconceptions about universe more fit in the era of 50s pulp SF than modern science and astronomy of XXI century.

The search for Martian canals was also very cheap. The point is that those are only hypothetical ideas.

Just as search for hypothetical radio signals sent by hypothetical transmitters of immense energy output. The difference is that searching for artificial objects or manipulation of stars would be actually easier and cheaper.

But if there was a planet that we knew had life, I think we would.

There is a high probability according to human knowledge as of now that Europa could have life. I don't see fleets of spacecraft sent there. The reality is that despite the hype the search for ET life is fascination for the very few.

If SETI researchers suddenly decided to spend that money on activities that did not involve establishing contact, those private individuals would simply stop funding them and find new SETI researchers.

Then I am afraid SETI will die a natural death as most of those individuals will be faced with easy to explain basic knowledge that rather abolishes the assumptions of SETI.

[baric]

You yourself noted that the search is funded largely by private investors not by governments. So as you see, finding other life is not the priority of our civilisation(like it or not). And I bolded out the search part-we simply aren't sending out numerous signals of enormous strenght towards the skies(besides a few amateur attempts). Why should other civilizations do so? This is another assumption that SETI has made in order to justify its search-an assumption that has no real backing.

It's irrelevant whether the funding comes from individuals or governments. The point is whether funding is allocated by anyone for these activities. It happens, and that's all that matters.

Most scientifc research concerns observable events, objects and entities. SETI is based on pure speculation so far. Please do mind, that I do not believe this is without any worth-simply that at current level of our understanding SETI is a relic of past misconceptions about universe more fit in the era of 50s pulp SF than modern science and astronomy of XXI century.

There is a lot of scientific research that centers around searching for the undetected, whether it is the Higgs boson or the Loch Ness Monster. How much money was spent to build neutrino detectors when they were still theoretical?

Just as search for hypothetical radio signals sent by hypothetical transmitters of immense energy output. The difference is that searching for artificial objects or manipulation of stars would be actually easier and cheaper.

If the transmitter is focused to a specific point, you can send a signal much further for less energy.

Whether or not searching for Dyson spheres is easy or cheap is not the point. The question is whether those devices even exist. At least with SETI, the case is more plausible that what you are looking for actually exists. We already know that there are intelligent races capable of sending out signals (us). No one really knows if star lifting is viable.

There is a high probability according to human knowledge as of now that Europa could have life. I don't see fleets of spacecraft sent there. The reality is that despite the hype the search for ET life is fascination for the very few.

It's called SETI, not SET. While Europa is certainly a fascinating area of research for astrobiologists, it's not a concern for SETI for obvious reasons.

Then I am afraid SETI will die a natural death as most of those individuals will be faced with easy to explain basic knowledge that rather abolishes the assumptions of SETI.

Many thought SETI would wither and die when federal funding was cut. Obviously, it didn't. There will always be investors to fund SETI. The allure of contact is just too great.

[Toymaker]

It's irrelevant whether the funding comes from individuals or governments. The point is whether funding is allocated by anyone for these activities.

It happens, and that's all that matters.

The funding of private investors will never reach the levels affordable by governments. And you dodged the issue of search versus contact. What SETI assumes

-a gigantic endevour with huge energy consuming machines sending radio signals to all galaxy-would require enormous levels of funding. Frankly we don't see

it happening anytime soon on Earth do we?

There is a lot of scientific research that centers around searching for the undetected, whether it is the Higgs boson or the Loch Ness Monster. How much

money was spent to build neutrino detectors when they were still theoretical?

I wouldn't compare searching for Higgs boson to search for Loch Ness Monster, unless you are arguing that SETI is equal to people praying for contact with

Zeta Reticuli UFO's.

If the transmitter is focused to a specific point, you can send a signal much further for less energy.

And how is the that relevant to the fact that search for Dyson spheres, signs of civilization and star lifting is simpler and cheaper?

Whether or not searching for Dyson spheres is easy or cheap is not the point

Than why have you argued it isn't(wrongly I might add)


[quote[The question is whether those devices even exist. At least with SETI, the case is more plausible that what you are looking for actually exists.

[/quote]
Gigantic radio transmitters sending high energy transmissions along thousands of light years through millions of years are more plausible than civilizations

minding their own business? That's an interesting claim

We already know that there are intelligent races capable of sending out signals (us)

And how many millions of stars are we sending the signals to each year? 100.000.000 stars? 10.000.000 stars per year? In distances of 100.000.000 light

years? Or perhaps 10.000.000

No one really knows if star lifting is viable

Maybe. But I see no signs of our civilization sending signals across space to millions of other star systems just as well. And there are other signs of

civilization available.

It's called SETI, not SET. While Europa is certainly a fascinating area of research for astrobiologists, it's not a concern for SETI for obvious reasons.

You are dodging the issue again-which is that contrary to one of SETI dogma's our civilization isn't exactly keen on explorting space or finding other life. In fact you yourself admitted that SETI is forced to use private funding as no government felt pressure of the public to fund its attempts in any significant way. Meanwhile SETI assumes other civilizations do nothing else but for millions of years send signals all over the galaxy by constructing nothing else but gigantic radio transmitters. If that doesn't look like pulp SF from the 50s than what does?

Many thought SETI would wither and die when federal funding was cut. Obviously, it didn't. There will always be investors to fund SETI. The allure of contact
is just too great.

Well I guess they will always be people that can be deceived for money. Obviously the odds of contact are very slim indeed, as pointed above and are based more on SETI dogmas coming from bygone age of poorly understood space and ideas from Golden Age of SF(huge interstellar civilizations, nearby ETI life, other civilizations just waiting to contact us and so on). The one thing which is certain and ironic, is that those private investors never will allow for funds required to send numerous signals for millions of years to other civilizations-something SETI takes currently as granted for its efforts to succeed.

[baric]

The funding of private investors will never reach the levels affordable by governments. And you dodged the issue of search versus contact. What SETI assumes

-a gigantic endevour with huge energy consuming machines sending radio signals to all galaxy-would require enormous levels of funding. Frankly we don't see

it happening anytime soon on Earth do we?

I question whether that is an assumption of SETI. The basic assumption is that they may be transmitting, so maybe we should start looking. Unfortunately, we don't KNOW where they are at, so we look at thousands of stars.

Transmitting, however, is a completely different endeavor. No one is suggesting that alien civilizations are transmitting huge signals to thousands of different star systems. What is more likely is that they would have identified systems with a high likelihood of biological life and periodically ping those systems with clearly non-random signals just in case someone is looking.

I wouldn't compare searching for Higgs boson to search for Loch Ness Monster, unless you are arguing that SETI is equal to people praying for contact with Zeta Reticuli UFO's.

My point is that you can have a completely legitimate and scientific search for an unknown, even if that unknown turns out to not exist. Still waiting on that Higgs Boson....

And how is the that relevant to the fact that search for Dyson spheres, signs of civilization and star lifting is simpler and cheaper?

Because one of your key issues is that any alien endeavor to contact us would be a massive undertaking and not worth their effort. I just don't think it would be as onerous as you suggest. See below...

Gigantic radio transmitters sending high energy transmissions along thousands of light years through millions of years are more plausible than civilizations minding their own business? That's an interesting claim

It's far more plausible. The technology required to do so is well-established and there is a scientific disincentive to "mind their own business". Looking for Dyson spheres requires assumptions about the capabilities of far-future technology that we can really understand. Why do you even think that Dyson spheres are where technology will lead?

And how many millions of stars are we sending the signals to each year? 100.000.000 stars? 10.000.000 stars per year? In distances of 100.000.000 light years? Or perhaps 10.000.000

We are not currently sending signals to any specific system, as far as I'm aware, but I'm pretty sure that we have the rudimentary capability to do so. If we discover a biological planet, I'd wager that we would be sending signals to it within a half-century.

Maybe. But I see no signs of our civilization sending signals across space to millions of other star systems just as well. And there are other signs of civilization available.

We're not doing it because we don't know where to point the transmitter. Any civilization advanced enough to build star lifters already knows about us and is likely sending signals. Of course, for the 99.9% of other civilizations that aren't building Dyson Spheres, they also know where we are at and are likely sending signals.

You are dodging the issue again-which is that contrary to one of SETI dogma's our civilization isn't exactly keen on explorting space or finding other life.

I disagree. How many movies and TV shows have space themes?

In fact you yourself admitted that SETI is forced to use private funding as no government felt pressure of the public to fund its attempts in any significant way. Meanwhile SETI assumes other civilizations do nothing else but for millions of years send signals all over the galaxy by constructing nothing else but gigantic radio transmitters. If that doesn't look like pulp SF from the 50s than what does?

You know what really looks to me like pulp fiction from the 50s? DYSON SPHERES. STAR LIFTING.

It's all a matter of opinion, I guess.


Well I guess they will always be people that can be deceived for money. Obviously the odds of contact are very slim indeed, as pointed above and are based more on SETI dogmas coming from bygone age of poorly understood space and ideas from Golden Age of SF(huge interstellar civilizations, nearby ETI life, other civilizations just waiting to contact us and so on). The one thing which is certain and ironic, is that those private investors never will allow for funds required to send numerous signals for millions of years to other civilizations-something SETI takes currently as granted for its efforts to succeed.[/QUOTE]

[neilzero]

The probability of receiving a signal from ET is unknown, so we should not say "very slim". Maybe SETI can do better, but more funding seems unlikely. Star lifting and Dyson spheres may be detectable. Does anyone have details? I suppose a Dyson sphere would be a strong emitter of long infra red light, but so are stars in about the same direction. What is the seconds of arc resolution of our best far infrared telescopes ?
Someone thought that a 1/2 c space craft would emit gigawatts of radio waves and other electromagnetic radiation. Does anyone know how to tell these emissions from noise? Neil

[skep155]

Regarding signal strength, I'm pretty sure one of the SETI guys confirmed we'd light up like a beacon to anyone within 50 light years or so providing they made a reasonable attempt to listen, seriously doubt there's any technological civilizations within that distance though.

I guess the future is going to involve spotting 'Earth like' planets and directing signals toward them. I think it's reasonable to assume that if any more advanced species wanted to communicate with us they would employ a similar strategy. Finding extrasolar terrestrial planets, trying to get an idea of the processes going on in the planets atmosphere, then when you have a good candidate for a planet harbouring life send a signal.

[Infinitenight2093]

Ok. Here are my thoughts.
I think its time to radically revise SETI. It's assumptions and dogma are very outdated and they don't hold together when analysed.
Basically SETI searches for delibrate radio signals sent to us, with the aim of contacting Earth. SETI does not search for TV or radio signals by aliens-they would be too weak to receive and too unlikely to happen. The whole SETI dogma is based on very weak foundations-that A-there is a nearby very developed alien civilization B-that is knows of our existance or desires to send radio signals all over the gallaxy C-that it sends us radio signals of enormous strenght(this also assumes they know of our technological level).

Now all of this looks more like 50s SF story than current state of knowledge we posses.
We know that we are reducing radio emissions, we know that is rather unlikely that alien civilizations are nearby and near our technology level. We know that we as civlization hardly care for sending delibrate radio signals all over Galaxy-why should aliens care?

So I think that SETI modus operandi needs to be updated taking into account modern developments.
The search for radio signals in all likelyhood is fruitless. Too much distance, too many assumptions, too much outdated theories.
What we do know is that we can already spot exoplanets. And that our ability to observe space is growing year by year. SETI should concentrate on finding optical signs of alien civilizations-Dyson Spheres, Star Lifting, but also help develop new generation telescopes like Planet Imager, New Worlds Observer that will allow us to detect signs of civilization on other planets.

What do you think?

In my opinion SETI is just a probability experiment. The galaxy is a very large space and we wont know for sure if there are alien civilizations trying to contact us until we search ourselves. However, I do agree that a better approach could be taken to SETI. Right now we are trying to find the needle in a very large haystack, most of which we can't fully see.

[Noclevername]

SETI searches for deliberate radio signals because that is the easiest thing to search for, and the easiest way for a technological civilization to make itself known. The other methods-- visually seeing moved stars, etc.-- would be recognizable to sharp-eyed observers in other fields, so SETI doesn't waste resources on searches that would be either redundant or too expensive for their limited budget.

[bunker9603]

Is it true that SETI does not have the means to analyse the southern hemisphere?

[SolusLupus]

Ok. Here are my thoughts.
I think its time to radically revise SETI. It's assumptions and dogma are very outdated and they don't hold together when analysed.
Basically SETI searches for delibrate radio signals sent to us, with the aim of contacting Earth. SETI does not search for TV or radio signals by aliens-they would be too weak to receive and too unlikely to happen. The whole SETI dogma is based on very weak foundations-that A-there is a nearby very developed alien civilization B-that is knows of our existance or desires to send radio signals all over the gallaxy C-that it sends us radio signals of enormous strenght(this also assumes they know of our technological level).

Now all of this looks more like 50s SF story than current state of knowledge we posses.
We know that we are reducing radio emissions, we know that is rather unlikely that alien civilizations are nearby and near our technology level. We know that we as civlization hardly care for sending delibrate radio signals all over Galaxy-why should aliens care?

So I think that SETI modus operandi needs to be updated taking into account modern developments.
The search for radio signals in all likelyhood is fruitless. Too much distance, too many assumptions, too much outdated theories.
What we do know is that we can already spot exoplanets. And that our ability to observe space is growing year by year. SETI should concentrate on finding optical signs of alien civilizations-Dyson Spheres, Star Lifting, but also help develop new generation telescopes like Planet Imager, New Worlds Observer that will allow us to detect signs of civilization on other planets.

What do you think?

Okay, I'm curious what your new plan would look like. Can you give me a summary and analysis, as well as a budget? Are we talking about a new plan that's cheaper or more expensive than the current project? Furthermore, what can SETI do that isn't currently being done by other departments?

[Substantia Innominata]

If there are alien races out there, there's a good chance that they know our system has biological life.

How exactly do you compute this 'good chance' you're speaking of and, obviously, are certain about?

They would also understand that the technology curve is steep and dangerous, so that their window for communication could conceivably be very short if we cannot properly manage it.

Again, how could you know that? I'm just curious. They would also understand..? Why? Personally, I'm not even sure what (other) animals understand, or, don't understand. To be precise, from time to time I even encounter problems of this sort concerning other humans!

Therefore, if they are out there, I think that they would be trying to contact us.

And I think otherwise. Who is correct? Who knows.

The questions boil down to "is there anyone out there?", "how would they contact us?", "how would we recognize it?", and "what are they trying to say?"

Just after the question whether there's 'anyone' out there, in my opinion, you really disregard some (crucial) points here, in other words, you seem much too optimistic. Much too simplistic. Some questions I'd interpose would be, for example, does the assumed intelligence even have a concept of outer space, 'as such', i.e. as we have? (Look, whales probably don't have, and guess what, that's not because they're stupid...) Or, do they have a concept, or are they even able to think of the possibility, of other "intelligences", species, lifeforms? Do they even communicate, at all, or at least in some sense that we might identify as a sort of communication? And, if so, how are they doing it? On what basis? Some form of a language, or, something we possible could identify as a form of language? We can quite easily do this in the case of birds, or certain whales, or apes, or elephants, but it already gets remarkably harder in the case of insects, with their mode to communicate, partly based on chemicals, for instance. (Keep in mind, there might be, somewhere, 'intelligent insects', or should I say, more intelligent insects, whatever that would look like...)

As long as powered by anthropomorphism, sure, it's oh so simple. Everything. Yet it's also absurd, naive, isn't it?

Why would they try and contact us? For the very same reasons we are searching for them!

Oh please.. come on?

Do you not believe that they would have scientists and people in their civilization fascinated (as we are) with the universe and their place in it?

It's just so funny, you're seriously speaking of, or calling 'them', 'people'. Of course 'they' must have scientists! 'They' must also have TV stations, watching football, eatin junk food. Yeeepp.

I fear that's exactly how many of those (or even most of) SETIans think. And it somehow makes me sad. No question: There is (even) worse kinds of pure money waste; but: in a world, where there's STILL people (humans!) starving, dying of thirst, or suffering or even miserably dying, just because they can't get medication which, nonetheless, is AVAILABLE ..well, I don't know. I just don't get it. And it's certainly not science! This is not science, whether being done by scientists, or not. So how can one seriously compare it, to the deeds of Einstein or, yes, the search for the Higgs boson?

Okay, I'm curious what your new plan would look like. Can you give me a summary and analysis, as well as a budget?

Uh, at least as far as I gather, the OP didn't say he'd have a full-blown plan to knock out here. Which isn't even his job, or is it? What he gave to consideration, were some thoughts of his -- and as such I deem them quite justified. In fact, I had similar thoughts but something like 10 years ago?! Meanwhile I simply stopped to care about it. It's good to know that, at least, this childish nonsense (I'm tempted to call it kind of pseudo- or surrogate religion) is no longer funded by public means.

And, please, don't misunderstand me. I'm very curious about the many mysteries of space, just as you are, I guess and that's eventually why I'm here. I'm also curious about this vague possibility (even though personally I don't believe in extraterrestrial life!) of other civilisations, somewhere, out there, in space. However, to my mind, some of you fail to take the whole picture into account. Instead I'm fairly sympathetic with the OP, only disagreeing in one point. He writes, the assumptions of SETI today would be based on 1950s sci-fi thinking. No, I don't think so. In some sense, I think it's even worse than that. The assumptions of SETI are based on a certain flaw that one may describe as 'timeless'. It's even got a handy name as it's simply called 'anthropomorphism'. This is your flaw! And I'm not sure, why it (still) is done in so frustratingly a manner. Maybe we (as humans) just cannot do without it? But do you think it's clever, promising?

Always keep in mind: Some of the (other) primates share ~98% of their genetic material with us, it's just congruent. They're very very nearly like us. Yet they, I'd say, most probably do not think (or, anyhow, care) much about ETI. Although they are not stupid! They are not. Instead, they're just a little different. It is just the same with, say, dolphins, or the larger cetaceans, or, elephants, or even the cephalopods! All these lifeforms are intelligent. Highly intelligent. In their, necessarily individual sense of it. What is more (and no wonder therefore): We (all) - as terrestrial lifeforms - are very much akin, we are related in practically any sense whatsoever, have gone through one and the same planetary evolution, we all originate from the same primeval 'ancestor'. I guess, many of you consider, for example, cephalopods, some pretty strange beings, right? Now, if (and again, I don't believe it) there really would be a form of extraterrestrial life, that is, life, completely and in ANY sense unrelated to terrestrial life, to life as we (only!) know it, I promise, simply because the probability seems etraordinarily high, that it would be (in every sense) vastly, yes incredibly more strange, more alien, than the most 'outlandish' critter you migh find on Earth. You say what? Scientists?? They wouldn't even have a concept (if they had 'concepts) of 'scientist'; at any rate, until they (might) learn it from us. (They never would.) Do monkeys train scientists? Whales? Giraffes? Do they know, what a scientist is? No! And, no, that doesn't make them stupid. They simply cannot work with such concepts, for the plain reason that these are.. human concepts!

Human. Specially. Exclusively.

That's one reason, why we humans cannot really communicate with the other animals here on Earth. (Not even with dolphins, or other primates, forget about that. We can only train them to act AS IF..) We do not share what I'd like to dub a conceptual scheme. And this isn't exactly a question of intelligence, it's more a question of compatibility. I know, some out of this SETI bunch like to boast the conviction that, with ETI, we naturally could communicate based on 'mathematics.' On mathematics? You mean, human mathematics?? Seriously, it makes me only laugh...

Anyone familiar whith a bit of Ludwig Wittgenstein? -> "If a lion could speak, we could not understand him." (We could not.)

Give it a thought. Just do me that favor.

[nokton]

Ok. Here are my thoughts.
I think its time to radically revise SETI. It's assumptions and dogma are very outdated and they don't hold together when analysed.
Basically SETI searches for delibrate radio signals sent to us, with the aim of contacting Earth. SETI does not search for TV or radio signals by aliens-they would be too weak to receive and too unlikely to happen. The whole SETI dogma is based on very weak foundations-that A-there is a nearby very developed alien civilization B-that is knows of our existance or desires to send radio signals all over the gallaxy C-that it sends us radio signals of enormous strenght(this also assumes they know of our technological level).

Now all of this looks more like 50s SF story than current state of knowledge we posses.
We know that we are reducing radio emissions, we know that is rather unlikely that alien civilizations are nearby and near our technology level. We know that we as civlization hardly care for sending delibrate radio signals all over Galaxy-why should aliens care?

So I think that SETI modus operandi needs to be updated taking into account modern developments.
The search for radio signals in all likelyhood is fruitless. Too much distance, too many assumptions, too much outdated theories.
What we do know is that we can already spot exoplanets. And that our ability to observe space is growing year by year. SETI should concentrate on finding optical signs of alien civilizations-Dyson Spheres, Star Lifting, but also help develop new generation telescopes like Planet Imager, New Worlds Observer that will allow us to detect signs of civilization on other planets.

What do you think?

Hi Toymaker, could not agree with you more that SETI MO is out of date. Have questioned this before on this site.
With tongue in cheek, many UFO sightings, but no ' radio chatter'. if only 1% of UFO sightings are genuine, then
they must communicate with each other, and have a communication system that is not of our current technology.
Nokton

[Garrison]

Hi Toymaker, could not agree with you more that SETI MO is out of date. Have questioned this before on this site.
With tongue in cheek, many UFO sightings, but no ' radio chatter'. if only 1% of UFO sightings are genuine, then
they must communicate with each other, and have a communication system that is not of our current technology.
Nokton

Problem is that currently 0% of UFO sightings have been shown to be alien spacecraft...

[baric]

How exactly do you compute this 'good chance' you're speaking of and, obviously, are certain about?

Let me clarify. When I mentioned "alien races", I was specifically referring to technologically-advanced races. If they are out there, and please noticed I emphasized the 'if', then I think there's a good chance that they would have studied the stars and likely discovered other systems with life-bearing potential -- as we are doing now.

Again, how could you know that? I'm just curious. They would also understand..? Why? Personally, I'm not even sure what (other) animals understand, or, don't understand. To be precise, from time to time I even encounter problems of this sort concerning other humans!

I am not talking about non-technological species, so your objection doesn't really apply.

And I think otherwise. Who is correct? Who knows.

Exactly! That's why we should continue to observe.

Just after the question whether there's 'anyone' out there, in my opinion, you really disregard some (crucial) points here, in other words, you seem much too optimistic. Much too simplistic. Some questions I'd interpose would be, for example, does the assumed intelligence even have a concept of outer space, 'as such', i.e. as we have? (Look, whales probably don't have, and guess what, that's not because they're stupid...)

Whales are aquatic. Do you think that Earth is the only terrestrial planet capable of supporting life that is not an ocean planet?

Or, do they have a concept, or are they even able to think of the possibility, of other "intelligences", species, lifeforms? Do they even communicate, at all, or at least in some sense that we might identify as a sort of communication? And, if so, how are they doing it? On what basis? Some form of a language, or, something we possible could identify as a form of language? We can quite easily do this in the case of birds, or certain whales, or apes, or elephants, but it already gets remarkably harder in the case of insects, with their mode to communicate, partly based on chemicals, for instance. (Keep in mind, there might be, somewhere, 'intelligent insects', or should I say, more intelligent insects, whatever that would look like...)

I'm not concerned about non-technological species as there will be no way to communicate with them. Are you arguing that there is something particular about the human species that allowed us to become technological, but will preclude intelligent species on other planets from doing the same?

As long as powered by anthropomorphism, sure, it's oh so simple. Everything. Yet it's also absurd, naive, isn't it?

I don't believe so. You are free to mock otherwise.

It's just so funny, you're seriously speaking of, or calling 'them', 'people'. Of course 'they' must have scientists! 'They' must also have TV stations, watching football, eatin junk food. Yeeepp.

Now you're just being obnoxious. If you think that somehow a technological species can become so without individuals of that species doing the thinking and exploring required to discover the nature of the universe, I'd like to know how.

I fear that's exactly how many of those (or even most of) SETIans think. And it somehow makes me sad. No question: There is (even) worse kinds of pure money waste; but: in a world, where there's STILL people (humans!) starving, dying of thirst, or suffering or even miserably dying, just because they can't get medication which, nonetheless, is AVAILABLE ..well, I don't know. I just don't get it. And it's certainly not science! This is not science, whether being done by scientists, or not. So how can one seriously compare it, to the deeds of Einstein or, yes, the search for the Higgs boson?

SETI is privately funded. Its donors can spend their money however they want. How much do you give to charity? We can compare that to what the SETI contributors also give to charity and see how well your point holds up. See how absurd that is?

And yes, it is science whether you think the money is well-spent or not. Physics is only one of many branches of science. If Einstein's accomplishments were the minimum standard for defining "science", then there would be almost nothing we'd call science, correct?

[kamaz]

I think its time to radically revise SETI. It's assumptions and dogma are very outdated and they don't hold together when analysed.

This is correct, but for a wholly different reason.

SETI is not based on 1950s sci-fi, but on assumptions stemming from 1950s radio technology. Back then, the only modulation schemes used were AM and FM. If you look a the signal of an AM or FM station on a spectrum analyzer, you will see a strong peak corresponding to the carrier frequency. Since there are no such signals in nature, this is an indication of artificiality. So if aliens detected our TV signals, they would probably not be able to decode them, but they would be able to tell that the signal is artificial just by looking at the spectrum analyzer. So an idea was born to look for alien TV, by looking for narrowband signals (i.e. strong carrier). If you read Frank Drake, it is obvious that this was what they were after in the beginning. After all, an advanced civilization spanning several planets, or solar systems would produce some pretty strong signals, wouldn't it?

The problem with this idea became apparent later, with the advent of more advanced modulation schemes. You see, the problem with an AM/FM system is that most of the transmitter's output power is spent on transmitting the carrier signal -- although it carries no useful information! To solve that problem, advanced modulation schemes have been developed (e.g. SSB), which avoid transmitting the carrier. At that moment the basic SETI assumption went out of the window.

This was followed by the advent of spread-spectrum digital modulations, which make an even better use of the transmitter power -- and pose an even better problem for SETI. You see, you can find an SSB signal with a spectrum analyzer; it is more difficult than an AM/FM signal, but is doable -- it still is a narrow-band signal (several kHz) well above the noise floor. However, a spread-spectrum modulation scheme is a wide band signal (several MHz), which virtually indistinguishable from noise. Without knowing the modulation, encoding scheme AND particular code vectors which are being used, you cannot even be sure that the signal is there, let alone decode it. (Interestingly, this is why the spread spectrum systems were originally invented: to provide secure military communications. But I digress.)

To make matters worse, in 1950s our civilization has used radio signals for communication over large distances, which required big transmitters and strong signals. Nowadays, the long-distance communications is handled by fiber optics, and radio is increasingly used for short-range communications -- at comparably low powers.

What all that means for a hypothetical alien observer is that over time our civilization will become LESS visible in the RF range -- the signals are getting weaker and more resembling noise. Making a simple assumption that any alien civilization will follow the same path, you see that every civilization has a comparably short period, say 100-200 years, when it's detectable over RF.

THIS is why the SETI people work on the assumption that the alien signals would be intentional beacons. They would be purposefully made easy to detect and transmitted on 1420MHz.

However, this assumption is self-defeating: a narrow-band beacon, at the frequency of interstellar hydrogen is absolutely THE worst bet in terms of information capacity per energy cost. Basically, a civilization would spend a great amount of money to say HELLO and that's it. But if WE wanted to spend a lot of money to tell something to other intelligent races, we would want to say something more, wouldn't we? After all, if we had one shot at telling something to an alien civilization, wouldn't it make more sense to transmit the whole Library of Congress?

But transmitting a sensible message would require using a more advanced modulation scheme with advanced coding and error correction -- except that it would be more difficult to decode, or even detect (see above). A way around this would be to have the message in parts. Send an AM beacon at 1420MHz containing information about the frequency where the next part is transmitted. The second part would contain the information about the way the next part is transmitted. So the listener would be instructed at each time, where to look for the next part and how to decode it. After several iterations, she could decode the actual message. This is workable, but the whole exercise would be insanely complicated and error prone. Which brings us back to the original question: would it be actually worthwhile?

The search for radio signals in all likelyhood is fruitless. Too much distance, too many assumptions, too much outdated theories.

I disagree here. It has provided us with a negative result. People don't like negative results, but these are also important. We know that this approach doesn't work.

[kamaz]

I suppose a Dyson sphere would be a strong emitter of long infra red light, but so are stars in about the same direction.

Correct. This approach has already been tried. Arguably, at least one target DOES have the expected characteristics(!).
The project website is here: http://home.fnal.gov/~carrigan/infra...lab_search.htm
Findings are given in this PDF: http://home.fnal.gov/~carrigan/infra...08%206%202.pdf . Slide 17 and onwards. The results are... intriguing.

[kamaz]

Someone thought that a 1/2 c space craft would emit gigawatts of radio waves and other electromagnetic radiation. Does anyone know how to tell these emissions from noise? Neil

A search was done on the assumption that a relativistic spacecraft would emit gamma rays. The results were negative. See here:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/f352v70235320p12/

[kamaz]

Also, this paper provides a nice overview of beyond-RF SETI concepts if anyone is interested: http://www.coseti.org/lemarch1.htm

[Gomar]

What I think is that all that the OP proposes has already been done by aliens... if they in fact exist at all.
I am sure any ET's that are 10,000 years ahead of us have spotted Earth thru their telescopes or some other means. Then, logic tells us, they would have sent out probes to either observe or make contact with any intelligent species on Earth. Assuming there are hundreds if not thousands of ET's in the galaxy capable of doing so, the Earth would've been covered with hundreds of probes or even visited as often as humans visit Vegas.
Yes, anything that has mass cannot travel FTL; but assuming it takes 1,000 years for a probe to get here, and it was sent out at the time the pyramids were built, it should've been spotted.
The fact that no alien probes have announced themselves or been spotted proves no aliens exist capable of sending them, or in fact no aliens exist in the galaxy at all.

[nokton]

What I think is that all that the OP proposes has already been done by aliens... if they in fact exist at all.
I am sure any ET's that are 10,000 years ahead of us have spotted Earth thru their telescopes or some other means. Then, logic tells us, they would have sent out probes to either observe or make contact with any intelligent species on Earth. Assuming there are hundreds if not thousands of ET's in the galaxy capable of doing so, the Earth would've been covered with hundreds of probes or even visited as often as humans visit Vegas.
Yes, anything that has mass cannot travel FTL; but assuming it takes 1,000 years for a probe to get here, and it was sent out at the time the pyramids were built, it should've been spotted.
The fact that no alien probes have announced themselves or been spotted proves no aliens exist capable of sending them, or in fact no aliens exist in the galaxy at all.

You are wrong on many points. One, mass cannot travel FTL, two, you have little knowledge of the history of exploration on this planet.
If one lesson is to be learned it is this, when a superior race encounters a more primitive one, the primitive one suffers.
Would cite the Spanish Conquistadors as a prime example. Sit down, get a cup of coffee, and dwell on this, If an alien spaceship parked
itself above the White House tomorrow, how would the stock markets react? Panic woud result. You speak of intelligence as tho' we had
a domain over it, and we understand eveything, look around you, we may be the apex predator at this time because of our technology,
but intelligent? I think not, we insist on killing each other for political or religious reasons, why would any advanced alien want to be involved.
Your assertion that no aliens exist in the galaxy at all, beggers belief, and speaks volumes about who you are, and how much you know
and understand about life. As a by to by, Clarks equations are all wrong.
Nokton

[Nereid]

Ok. Here are my thoughts.
I think its time to radically revise SETI. It's assumptions and dogma are very outdated and they don't hold together when analysed.
Basically SETI searches for delibrate radio signals sent to us, with the aim of contacting Earth. SETI does not search for TV or radio signals by aliens-they would be too weak to receive and too unlikely to happen. The whole SETI dogma is based on very weak foundations-that A-there is a nearby very developed alien civilization B-that is knows of our existance or desires to send radio signals all over the gallaxy C-that it sends us radio signals of enormous strenght(this also assumes they know of our technological level).

Now all of this looks more like 50s SF story than current state of knowledge we posses.
We know that we are reducing radio emissions, we know that is rather unlikely that alien civilizations are nearby and near our technology level. We know that we as civlization hardly care for sending delibrate radio signals all over Galaxy-why should aliens care?

So I think that SETI modus operandi needs to be updated taking into account modern developments.
The search for radio signals in all likelyhood is fruitless. Too much distance, too many assumptions, too much outdated theories.
What we do know is that we can already spot exoplanets. And that our ability to observe space is growing year by year. SETI should concentrate on finding optical signs of alien civilizations-Dyson Spheres, Star Lifting, but also help develop new generation telescopes like Planet Imager, New Worlds Observer that will allow us to detect signs of civilization on other planets.

What do you think?

(bold added)

Why would a concentration, by SETI, "on finding optical signs of alien civilizations-Dyson Spheres, Star Lifting" be any less dogmatic and in all likelihood fruitless than the 50's SETI?

How could any "new generation telescopes like Planet Imager, New Worlds Observer [...] allow us to detect signs of civilization on other planets"?

Aren't the "assumptions and dogma" behind such suggested new/revised SETI just as poor/weak/etc as those behind the 50's SETI?

[Gomar]

Well Nokton, for someone who comes from England your English is rather poor. Let's examine what you've said:

You are wrong on many points. One, mass cannot travel FTL, two, you have little knowledge of the history of exploration on this planet.

ok. Didnt I say anything that has mass cannot travel FTL? Perhaps you've misread my statement. And how would you conclude from that statement that I have little knowledge of history of any kind on this or any other planet?

If one lesson is to be learned it is this, when a superior race encounters a more primitive one, the primitive one suffers. Would cite the Spanish Conquistadors as a prime example. Sit down, get a cup of coffee

Ok. Again, how does your answer disprove my points? In fact, you are proving I am 100% correct. Considering that planet Earth has not been conquered by aliens eventhough they've had thousands of years to do so proves they do not exist.
BTW, I drink vodka when I post here.

but intelligent? I think not, we insist on killing each other for political or religious reasons, why would any advanced alien want to be involved.

Conquering a planet does not equal getting involved in solving that planet's problems. Either aliens invade, conquer, and eat us all, or... they are peaceful and gentle and will cure cancer, end wars and poverty and bring humans into the galactic network of worlds. Either/Or, 50/50, take your pick.

Your assertion that no aliens exist in the galaxy at all, beggers belief, and speaks volumes about who you are, and how much you knowand understand about life.

you've had too much coffee by now.

As a by to by, Clarks equations are all wrong.
Nokton

what's a "by to by"?

[Hernalt]

"PALEONTOLOGICAL TESTS: HUMAN-LIKE INTELLIGENCE IS NOT A
CONVERGENT FEATURE OF EVOLUTION" - CHARLES H. LINEWEAVER, Australian National University
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0711/0711.1751.pdf

[baric]

Yes, anything that has mass cannot travel FTL; but assuming it takes 1,000 years for a probe to get here, and it was sent out at the time the pyramids were built, it should've been spotted.

Why do you think they would send a probe? And if they did, how would it be spotted? I think you greatly overestimate our ability to find small objects.

[SolusLupus]

Give it a thought. Just do me that favor.

After some thought:

Well, I'd have to say, burying our heads in the sand because of unknowns doesn't seem to be the way to progress knowledge.

[SolusLupus]

What I think is that all that the OP proposes has already been done by aliens... if they in fact exist at all.
I am sure any ET's that are 10,000 years ahead of us have spotted Earth thru their telescopes or some other means. Then, logic tells us, they would have sent out probes to either observe or make contact with any intelligent species on Earth. Assuming there are hundreds if not thousands of ET's in the galaxy capable of doing so, the Earth would've been covered with hundreds of probes or even visited as often as humans visit Vegas.
Yes, anything that has mass cannot travel FTL; but assuming it takes 1,000 years for a probe to get here, and it was sent out at the time the pyramids were built, it should've been spotted.
The fact that no alien probes have announced themselves or been spotted proves no aliens exist capable of sending them, or in fact no aliens exist in the galaxy at all.

Your argument is unconvincing, as it ignores some key premises, and asserts some premises that are not necessarily true.

For one: it assumes that alien life must have evolved along a specific timeline, and we're the only latecomers in all the galaxy. It took long enough for sapient life to evolve on planet Earth, I do not understand the assumption that all other earthlikes would evolve sapient life better or faster.

For two: It assumes that telescopes have the ability to see any matter in the galaxy, at all, from any distance, if given enough time. Somehow I think that's more optimistic than "SETIans" would be.

For three: It assumes that Earth is the only earthlike world of interest to alien civilizations. What if there's a wealth of earthlikes or pseudo-earthlikes to explore? Then there would be limited resources for exploration.

For four: It assumes that there couldn't possibly have been any problems along a route that takes 1000 years to travel down -- circuitry error, collision with enough unseen debris, etc.

For five: It assumes that all alien races would send probes where they could communicate through other fashions (if they have super telescopes, why not super radios?)

For six: Your claim that "[It] proves [...] no aliens exist in the galaxy at all." is completely unsupported by your premises, which just involves desire or ability for outside contact.