For those of you that are in the usa try hanging out at the V.F.W., Or go to some Veterans Retirement Homes and talk with some of those people and show them a bunch of crater chain pictures.
Or didn’t the thought cross any ones mind that bomb damage assessment people could or would recognize this patterns?
But then the younger generation dosn't think of wars, except in movies. :roll:
It's not what you know or don't know, but what you know that isn't so that will hurt you. Will Rogers
http://www.craterchains.com/ns/nspage.html
Why roll your eyes? You're here trying to peddle this, not some elderly veteran. You seem to ignore more rational explanations and want yours to supplant them, but what have you brought to the table? I've learned more from the rebuttals than from you.Originally Posted by craterchains
Craterchains, thanks for the response. Is the "mistake" you're talking about just Eye-Zee's misattribution of the location, or is there an error in the calculations? I must admit I haven't checked the figures, but they seem consistent with the photographic evidence.
Anyway, you seem to be implying that the chain Eye-Zee based these calculations on is not one of the "uniform" ones which you regard as artificial. So, how about showing us some of the results from your three-year study? I'd like to see a couple of photographs together with your measurements and calculations showing that their "uniformity" is within 5%. It doesn't have to be very detailed, just a paragraph or two like the one above would be fine. Please also tell us which statistic you're using as a measure of "uniformity". Thanks in advance.
Also, I think your post about showing crater chain photographs to veterans raises an interesting point. Have you compared these chains to any war photographs of aerial bombardment? That seems like a logical next step if you suspect that the extraterrestrial chains were caused in this way.
omg. you think these chains are a result of bomb damage??
clue: any race advanced enough to travel between the stars doesn't need to fire a spread of projectiles to hit a target. They'll just fire one. Some of these craters are miles in diameter. I can't believe you'd think an advanced alien race *missed* a target by several miles. That's hilarious.
besides, here's what you said initially:
I think that you are just now realizing how silly it sounds that these chains would be a "signal" so now you are digging around for some other cause. Well sorry, war isn't a good explanation either.Could this be a sign or signal that SETI missed?
Care to try again? Look, here's a piece of advice. There's nothing wrong with questioning conventional logic. There's nothing wrong with thinking, when you first see something as odd as a crater chain, that it might be unnatural. Here's the advice: when you are rebutted, don't go into defensive mode and start pulling things out of thin air. Just be an adult and admit that you were wrong. It's ok to question conventional thinking, but don't get married to an idea that is full of holes.
Leaving out any other analysis that you might do on a crater chain, if they were unnatural there would have to be a “why” there somewhere. If they are not natural, then why did their creators create them? What I've tried to make you understand is that they are a very very poor signal to leave behind. That explanation just doesn't make sense. Now you've come up with the idea that they are evidence of war. Well, that doesn't make sense either. There has to be a why and you don't appear to have any clue what it might be.
Well, the rest of us do know why they are there. They are the result of a single object that was torn apart by tidal forces. The same force that creates, on opposite sides of the Earth at the same time, two high-tides stretched the pieces of that object into a long line of smaller objects. When the orbits finally decayed, the smaller objects were all still together and hit, one right after the other, forming a long line.
That explanation makes sense. The idea that the chains are the result of an incredibly inaccurate attack by an incredibly advanced race does not make sence. The idea that the chains are a message does not make sense. The only idea that makes sense is that they are the result of a single object that broke up.
Instead of spinning your wheels making things up, I suggest you put more effort into understanding the explanation offered by astronomers and physicists with advanced degrees and an in-depth understanding of this stuff. What hubris to think that you would instantly have a greater insight than all the scientists in the world!
Essentially craterchains has come up with a hypothesis. This is not a working theory as there is no evidence beyond conjecture and supposition. Assumptions are not supported by available evidence and other theories explain through natural occurrence what is observed.
Plainly put it's an idea. Defending it with piles of "after the fact" hand waving does nothing to support the hypothesis.
Come up with more than snide questions like "Or didn’t the thought cross any ones mind that bomb damage assessment people could or would recognize this patterns?" or "Or, you could ask the aliens? gives you only the appearance of someone who is so smug that reason cannot be entered into the conversation.
You came up with an idea and posted it. People then asked questions - Please don't expect people to be willing to accept ideas without some sort of firm evidence to back them up. So far all you have are questions that you give half answers to or are dismissive of. So far tofu has asked a very reasonable question that you have yet to answer.
Please give your answer without resorting to dismissive tactics. A simple “I don’t know” will do if, in fact, you have no idea. I believe many people would find a willingness to admit that you do not know something far more intelligent than the subtle innuendo that you know something that you just won’t come out and state plainly.
So, you have no proof at all? You have failed and refused to provide any evidence for your case.
You have been asked for evidence that SL9 could not have created a chain of craters if it had slammed into a moon immediately after breakup.
You have failed to provide such evidence, even after being asked multiple times.
You have failed to take your own advice.
You cannot seriously expect anyone to believe anything you say.
I don't have to waste even five minutes with this one. I see little evidence it's an impact chain at all. The only hint it might be comes from the right side where the linear feature breaks up into some pit-like features, which have sepveral other possible explanations - tectonism the most likely. Where it's linear you can't even pretend to identify a chain of dscrete or overlapping circular features.
“The simplest schoolboy is now familiar with truths for which Archimedes would have sacrificed his life.” – Earnest Renan
craterchains wrote:
“Did they fail to compensate for the very slight gravity of Phobos, as compared to Earth? Dismissed for gravity differences not being taken into account.”
You have no idea who Melosh is do you? OK. Here are the reasons why a natural explanation is the only explanation worth serious consideration.
An observable connection exists between Stickney crater and the intricate network of grooves.
The groove network radiates out from Stickney and wraps around the potato shaped moon until it reaches the anti-pode region, where the network disappears completely. This is to be expected for a rubble-pile object. The mere fact that Phobos was able to sustain the Stickney event indicates that Phobos was a rubble-pile object before the event.
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf004/p004-03.gif
craterchains wrote:
“Look, Read, Think.”
OK. I’ve done that. Your turn. Notice how the fracture pattern leads to and frames the anti-pode region? The conspicuous lack of grooves at the anti-pode is consistent with a natural cause and very problematic for any ‘space battle’ scenario.
Next, notice how the grooves are about 700 meters wide at Stickney, then taper to about 300 meters wide halfway to the other end and narrow further to about 100 meters as the network peters out at the anti-pode? Again, this is consistent with a natural cause and makes no sense in terms of a space battle. Take a look:
http://jules.unavco.org/Voyager/Mars/Phobos
Use this small map to get your bearings. Stickney crater is on the left. Follow the network to the right side of the map. Now, let’s take a closer look:
http://www.psi.edu/pds/astdata02/map...s/phrelcyl.jpg
Again, follow the network to the anti-pode. It really is outrageous to suggest that aliens went to the trouble to not only bombard Phobos in this manner, but to use ever smaller bombs as they went along.
The natural explanation really is the most elegant.
To all posting and reading.
My words were, “Based on what has been seen and the given data on the net the uniformity of these crater chains is easily with in 5% +/- range.” That is based on eyeballing all the crater chains in pictures available to us. That means hundreds of crater chains, not just a couple. The 5% was an eyeball guess based on all the crater chain pictures I have seen so far. Granted that my guestimate may not hold true. Yet it doesn’t hurt my case that these types of crater chains are not natural. If they indeed are weapons strikes it may just strengthen my case.
Maybe we should ask a machine gun manufacturer what their weapons strike patterns average out to? There are many questions that haven’t been asked, aren’t being asked, that should be asked. Why? All available cross references to these types of crater chains gives my eye only a few possible examples to go on after having ruled out other possible causes.
True, I could be wrong in my assertion, it seems I am always wrong in how I present the idea, or just plain wrong, by most. What most don’t realize about this though is that I don’t have to prove or even attempt to convince anyone about this theory or assertion. I don’t have to produce pages of math for me to see the relationships, you do. It is not necessary for me to do all this work for you. Although I still hold a very small reserve of doubt about our assertions and base theory that “If it took intelligence to make these 00000000000000000 all in a row, then it took intelligence to make the crater chains we are investigating.” Yes, I could be wrong.
Yet the most interesting aspect to me by far is the almost total opposition to the very idea of an Alien War in our solar system. How odd. Given that it is an idea, one that no one else ever thought of? (Or have they?) And that the idea is a new one, I find it odd that only a couple posters now and then actually attempt to relate to this idea and see where it goes. Very odd indeed.
My conviction comes from having examined hundreds of photos, even thousands, not just a couple. It comes from being able to relate with what I know can cause these types of crater chains. It comes from reading all the information that scientists are offering about them and their ideas on what may have caused them. 8-[
It's not what you know or don't know, but what you know that isn't so that will hurt you. Will Rogers
http://www.craterchains.com/ns/nspage.html
If you have examined hundreds of photos, how come you arent able to present any results of that?
Instead you are basically just saying "do your own research" and stop it there.
If you havent done even simplest evaluation like Eye-Zee showed you, what exactly have you been doing those 3 years? eyeballing photos?
If you dont show any of your data, one can only assume you dont have any.
Demonstrated what in a lab?
What was your experience with explosives? Setting off strings of closely spaced explosives? At the same time?
Actually then you have come here for validation of an opinion and not for serious discussion. Science is a process by which proofs must be offered for an assertion. You have the "theory" and offer no proof for it. Without offering any figures that can be evaluated, you are blowing smoke and I do beleive I have better things to do than watch a thread that is worth nothing.What most don’t realize about this though is that I don’t have to prove or even attempt to convince anyone about this theory or assertion. I don’t have to produce pages of math for me to see the relationships, you do. It is not necessary for me to do all this work for you.
If any are at all interested in these types of crater chains, or the idea / theory, what ever, that intelligence may have caused them, they are wise to examine all they can as we have done. It’s just another idea / theory, based on common knowledge obtained during my life. But I am still quite puzzled about some of the aspects of these types of crater chains.
So far there haven’t been any new rebuttals, and because of the closer examinations done because of these same old ones, I am even more convinced now than before that they are not natural. Thank you for that.
This is but a part of a much larger area of investigation that I have been involved with for over 30 years, yet it was an interesting anomaly and if indeed is caused by intelligence would answer many other questions. But it also would bring to question many of the other craters as to probable cause now wouldn’t it? Which of course would bring to question the whole background of crater formations all over our solar system too.
My only hope is that others will do some research and discover information we don’t have. Thank you Heathen for a new link of information and maps of Phobos. It is all relevant and good information, whether correct postulations and theories are presented or not. Time and closer examination of all available information will make or break this. After having looked at all the photos available they can make up their own minds. Or accept someone else’s ideas with out simply looking at pictures and comparing them to what else makes craters and crater chains.
Milli
You mentioned a lab a few posts back.
Farmers and land developers commonly use explosives to dig drainage ditches that are set to go off all at once and spaced at about half the average distance that these crater chains present. I helped out on a large farm for a bit in my youth.
It's not what you know or don't know, but what you know that isn't so that will hurt you. Will Rogers
http://www.craterchains.com/ns/nspage.html
craterchains.
To date, you’ve shown zero consideration for any posters views in any forum. You have evaded a tremendous number of valid questions by dismissal without foundation or simply ignoring the question. Pure evasion.
You have repeatedly attempted to argue with nothing more than personal incredulousness, which is no argument at all. You have repeatedly demonstrated that you operate with your own special definitions of concepts like, ‘investigation’, ‘research’ and scientific theory’. Apparently, you are the only person who does not realize that you are in deep thrall to the confirmation bias.
“What most don’t realize about this though is that I don’t have to prove or even attempt to convince anyone about this theory or assertion.”
Wrong. From your web-site:
“1. War has been occurring between ET factions here in our solar system for centuries.
2. That war recently escalated into a solar system wide conflict with the losers coming to earth.
3. The winners of that solar system war are still out there.
4. Earth is the only place we have yet to find CS crater chains.
5. We are being lied to and the biggest cover up in mankind's history is being perpetrated against us.
6. The entire race of mankind is at stake.”
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Those words are unconscionably irresponsible if only one person believes them. Of course you have to prove it.
craterchains wrote:
“My conviction comes from having examined hundreds of photos, even thousands, not just a couple.”
Wrong again. Your conviction clearly has nothing to do with the images and just as clearly precedes your ‘examination’. You made a leap of faith, and then skewed everything you came across to conform to your belief. In your own mind, you have succeeded to pound the square peg into the round hole. And you have ignored nearly all of modern science in the process.
Or do you really believe that every detractor in every forum is a dis-information agent?
(and how much would that pay and where can I sign up)
That was in regards to central peaks, not crater chains.
And what was the difference between explosions that were simultaneous and those that weren't? Did they ever do such explosions that weren't simultaneous?Farmers and land developers commonly use explosives to dig drainage ditches that are set to go off all at once and spaced at about half the average distance that these crater chains present. I helped out on a large farm for a bit in my youth.
Why yes Milli, we used dynamite to dig the hog wallow and pond. The dynamite was placed in certain locations and at different depths and set off at the proper times to move the dirt and rocks the way the powder monkeyand owner wanted it to go. Besides the many stumps we blew out of the ground also.
Thanks again Heathen for your view point.
It's not what you know or don't know, but what you know that isn't so that will hurt you. Will Rogers
http://www.craterchains.com/ns/nspage.html
So, what was the difference?
The difference? Happier hogs and us kids had us a swimming hole.
But I doubt that is your line of reasoning?
Not sure what it is you are asking or where you are going with this line of questioning.
After going back over all your posts and questions it seems that you are questioning the scientists statements about these types of craters in chains forming simultaneously. Or, nearly so anyway. I agree with this observation as from personal experience having worked with and (ahem) played with explosives. Pyrotechnics has been a very low key and seldom practiced hobby for many years.
The reason that it is stated that these hit almost simultaneously is based on the known properties of explosives and high energy impacts (big fast bullets) to eject the surrounding material from the impact along the line of simultaneous impacts or explosions. The force from each blast radiates in all directions, but if met with equal force on two sides as in a crater chain the ejected material is propelled along the path of least resistance, that being to the sides of the crater chain. Thereby very little ejecta is left in the blast holes along this line. Had these craters formed at much less than at the same time the results would have the ejecta material blanketing them to a much greater degree as is shown by other crater formations.
A question I have is other than it being a theory, that all these craters we see out there in our solar system is just taken for granted that they were caused by impacts of natural causes like comets or meteors or what ever you want to call space chunks. Yet we have no hard proof or photograph of a known impact crater. Is there? Eye witnesses that recorded the event and we have the crater to prove the account. Maybe the Carolina Bays and the old Indian legends?
It's not what you know or don't know, but what you know that isn't so that will hurt you. Will Rogers
http://www.craterchains.com/ns/nspage.html
are you saying that because no one alive has ever witnessed a real impact, it is therefore valid to claim that they are the result of bombardments instead of normal impacts from space debris? that is just plain silly. in absence of real live proof of the most logical answer, the most illogical one therefore must be true?!?
i think it was also mentioned in another thread: there is no need for 'bombs' (the exploding kind) when you have the availability of pure kinetic power released by the impact of a mass of rock coming in at high speed, even when slowed down by our atmosphere. in areas with no atmosphere there won't even be a slowdown.
oh, and inpacts from machine guns only give a 00000000 pattern in the movies, not in real life...
Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes? -- Groucho Marx
Morrolan
Well has anyone come up with the proof? An actual impactor impacting and creating a crater in nature? I am not saying it can’t or couldn’t happen, all I am saying is that we have no actual recording of such an event. Yet. The theory of space junk bombardment is still high on my list of probable causes of many craters, but not all.
Glad you got the rest figured out so fast, I’m still thinking about all this.
But you may want to think about aircraft type strafing runs for the Mars chains which can be viewed from an earlier link in this thread.
It's not what you know or don't know, but what you know that isn't so that will hurt you. Will Rogers
http://www.craterchains.com/ns/nspage.html
again, you are talking about a space-faring race here and you are attributing WWII-type tactics to them. We (the US) don't even make “strafing runs” anymore. We pick a target and we take it out. The idea that a race more advanced than us misses by many miles when we are acurate to within inches is just ludicrous.
Tofu
Begging to differ, strafing runs by aircraft are still being used and will continue to be used as a war tactic as long as there is war. Besides your statement of accuracy being somewhat inaccurate, your assumption that there is just one other race is curious too. Besides the statement you make about them having missed? By miles? Uhhhhmmm, missed what?
It's not what you know or don't know, but what you know that isn't so that will hurt you. Will Rogers
http://www.craterchains.com/ns/nspage.html
Your pulling our legs aren't you? :wink:
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ok, I guess you know more about it than I do. Nonetheless, my objection still stands. When we need to take out a target, we car fire a cruise missle. Why can't the aliens fire a cruise missile? Why do they need to fire a dozen times?
How large are the craters in this photo? They are probably at least a kilometer. Why did the aliens miss by several kilometers?
"The accuracy being inaccurate" what?Besides your statement of accuracy being somewhat inaccurate,
I make no such assumption.your assumption that there is just one other race is curious too.
Why is there a question mark at the end of this sentence? Are you asking me something?Besides the statement you make about them having missed?
uhhhmmmm, the target. They are an advanced race capable of traveling between the stars, yet they can't do what we do - they can't fire just one time and hit a target. They have to fire a dozen times and logically, only one of those hits becuase after they hit they stop fireing. So the target is in the bottom of one of those craters and the other craters are misses. The aliens missed. That doesn't make sense to me.By miles? Uhhhhmmm, missed what?
Craterchains, I think you're just wasting our time here. You claim to have spent three years studying this phenomenon. Other than looking at a few pictures, what exactly have you done? You quoted a number indicating the chains' "uniformity" but later said you hadn't actually measured anything. You've evaded many questions, and repeatedly asked us to do the work you failed to get around to during your three years of looking at pictures.
You've made a claim. I am very sceptical about the validity of this claim, but if there is any evidence supporting the contention that these chains were probably caused by an alien military and not by asteroids and comets, I'll look at it. But providing this evidence is your job. Not mine or anyone else's. If you don't provide any evidence, you have a scenario for a science fiction story, but that's all.
If you're serious about this claim, I suggest you follow up some of the lines of investigation I and others have suggested, and see if you can build a case. At the moment, you have nothing.
On the brighter side, I did find something you said which IS supported by the available evidence:
Well JohnW, I was a bit busy tracking down other things to stop and do the math at the time. Kind of like stopping to do the math when mortar rounds are walking up your back side. As an explorer of these crater chains and investigator involved in a much larger project with a much larger picture than crater chains, the time is limited, and they are but a piece of the larger picture. My job is just making it known that there is another possibility besides those given. To state my reasoning based on the available information and pictures along with what has been discussed with others of this mater is my job.
It is everyone’s job to make sure of what they think they know, scientists also have one of the worst records when it comes to prophesy.
These bigger crater chains are positioned with the explosions basically spaced in what is termed a spread pattern by submarine tactics. (Got that Tofu?)
This http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap011215.html
crater chain shows a lighter toned “splash” pattern near its upper left end. We are told by military types that this is indicative of something getting blown up above the surface and “raining down” after the explosions.
This image
http://www.craterchains.com/ns/cscC1.jpg
is of a crater chain on Ganymede also and are told that it appears to have probably been caused by something having been struck while on the surface. This Alien War, as one government type called it, is a lot more involved than just crater chains investigations. Were still collecting information and data, but we also want to talk about it.
It's not what you know or don't know, but what you know that isn't so that will hurt you. Will Rogers
http://www.craterchains.com/ns/nspage.html
Not really.
As opposed to ?
[My bold.] Basically, meaning... close enough? What degree of close enough are we talking about here? If you have to throw in too many "basicallys," you may be giving too much leeway.
Alien War? What is a governemnt type? Is that someone who looks like they work for a government but don't really? As far as wanting to talk about it, keep it coming.
Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
I'd never fault one's desire to be an "explorer" nor the fun of running down an unlikely hypothesis, but "Alien War" mumbo jumbo and mock secret project talk doesn't impress me. I think I see the "much larger picture" you're talking about. :wink:
craterchains reminds me of the quote:
When your only tool is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail.
If you show a picture of a crater to an expert in explosives, he will think that the crater was produced by an explosive.
That does not necessarily mean that the crater has been actually produced by an explosive.
papageno
"Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" - Hobbes (Calvin and Hobbes)
"It's all about context!" - Vince Noir (The Mighty Boosh)
"I've never heard of such a brutal and shocking injustice that I cared so little about!" - Zapp Brannigan (Futurama)
"...because the logic of the lines traced from reality is as poor of aesthetic value as it is strict in consistency. " - Paolo Bozzi (Naive Physics - free translation)
That was exactly what I was thinking.
Explosives are good up to a point for modeling impact, though there are caveates that need to be taken into account that differentiate the more omnidirectional nature of most explosions from the highly directional kinetic energy of multi-km/sec impacts. There is a reasonable body of literature from the nuclear test era in this direction, but I'm guessing craterchains has spent little of the last three years perusing it.
Crater ejecta and rays are rather common impact features as well, and craterchains' attribution of ejecta patterns on Ganymede to 'something being hit' is laughable. Yeah, something was hit - Ganymede... real hard... His "cscC1.jpg" image also looks as much or more like a grazing (very low angle) impact than a chain.
“The simplest schoolboy is now familiar with truths for which Archimedes would have sacrificed his life.” – Earnest Renan
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