oh and btw, the main covenant starfighter is the Seraph Fighter, its got shields and all, the banshee is just a in atmostshere craft. The TIE fighter and interceptor class doesnt even have shields! It actually does come down to how many capital ships the empire has, since sucidal brave Elites could just ram star destroyers, even IF they were better, you cant survive a 1.5km ship crashing with 1.6km ships. They'd both explode, this is IF the covenant are on a lower level of tech than the covenant, which I highly doubt. Imperials aren't sucidal (they fear death) Otherwise, all they'd have to do to wipe out the rebel fleet at Endor was to crash all their star destroyers into rebel ships, wiping them all out. After all, there WERE 2000 Empire ships and... 50 rebel ships... what they did was hide behind their shields and send out tiny fighters to engage more tiny fighters...

Okay, new question. Halo Forerunners v. Stargate: SG-1 Ancients. Both had weapons capable of eliminating sentient life in an entire galaxy. Discuss.

__________________
"What you think you thought you saw you did not see." Agent J, MiB - Manhatten Bureau

Been away for awhile, need to catch up...

Post #289
1)There would be no Sun Crushers in this fight, nor Eclipse.
2)The number of ships is defiantly wrong.
3)The fact that both can base delta zero a planet just points out how even Covenant and Imperial ships are.
4)I agree that Grand Admiral Thrawn was letting his feelings for SW get in the way of making clear arguments.

Post #290
1)Once again there shouldn’t be any Eclipse’ in this fight

2)No new Dark Troopers can be produced, all Phase 3’s were wiped out, and there’s not many Phase 2’s. Tie Maulers running over ground troops, well if they aren’t destroyed before them reach the troops then it would be just like running them over with the Warthog. There’s a counter to everything even the AT-ST’s, it’s called ghosts. How low can AT-AA’s fire, because banshees can scrape the ground and crush infantry easily. As for AT-AT’s easily taking a Scarab, that makes me laugh. It’s very well armoured, and its cannon would be more than enough to pen any armour on an AT-AT.

3)The only tie’s that would be here would be Tie Fighters, Tie Bombers, Tie Advanced and a limited number of Tie Defenders. Non except possibly the Defender would out class the Seraph fighters, and don’t forget Seraphs are also shielded.

4)The only hero’s that would register would be Vader, Thrawn, Bobo Fett and the Emperor, as none of the others are Heroic enough. As for Planetary shields stopping the Halo Weapons… not happening. Not much is known about how they work, but it requires extreme distances to be safe from it. Also the Forunners who built the Halo’s would have factored shields in and made them so they should have enough 'what ever they use' to overpower anything. After all it’s a weapon designed to wipe out all life in the galaxy, nothing is suppose to be able to hide from it, just be really far away when it goes off.

Post #295
The Elites are the Military might of the Covenant, they are the Leaders when it comes to military matters. The only reason that the Prophets took over during the Human Covenant war was that they were trying to cover up the fact that the humans were the descendants of their ‘Gods’. But as the Humans in SW evolved separately from the Human in Halo, They wouldn’t have to cover anything up and would leave the military matters to the Cast that knows it best.

Post #296
I agree with everything you said.

Post #301
Yes the closest SW equivalent to the Banshee would be the Snow Speeder.
The Suicidal aspect of the Covenant would defiantly give them an advantage.

It depends on what time period the Empire is in when they fight the covenant. So saying there is no esclipse is completely wrong. The only reason it was ever destroyed was Luke and Lea were able to reverse the force of the new emperor and it destroyed the esclipse.

AT-AT armor can withstand magma according to Thrawn, lets see a scarb survive that. A covenant Capitol ship compared with the Imperial Star Destroyer is a terrible match. The ISD(55 turbo lazers, ion cannons and many other attributes) has much more fire power than most covenant capitol ships which explains how hard it would be for a covenant capitol ship to ram an ISD.

This is not necessarily a battle between capitol ships. This is also a battle of other space vehicles. Broadside cruisers have very longranged boron missles that are devastating to space stations and frigates. The tartan patrol cruiser would be a counter to Seraphs because it is designed to take out small fighters and it is 200-600 meters long equipted with lazer cannons.

Tie defenders are very maneuverable fighters with ion cannons, lazer cannons and proton torpedoes. Even if there is not a lot of them they could take down several covenant capitol ships before being destroyed due to its maneuverability and shielding.

Clone Commandos would give the covenant a fit. There like another master chief but in more numbers. Imagine what over a hundred commandos could do.

I've got some information on Turbolasers. Rather than restate it all, I'll just post the links to the sites. Note, read all the pages in this following link. It has some on Ion Cannons to.http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/
Note that some of these pages are from a Star Wars vs. Star Trek site, so that's why it might mention the Federation and such. Some more on Star Wars beam weapons. http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/...eam/Beam2.html
Some on Star Wars missiles. http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/.../Torpedo2.html
On Star Wars power generation.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/...er/Power2.html
On sensors.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/...s/Sensor2.html
On Star Wars propulsion.

On Star Wars Industrial Capacity and Territorial Holdings.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/...Industry2.html
On other miscellaneous tech.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/.../Special2.html
Halopedia even states in its article on Slipspace that hyperspace is faster, so and here's that link. http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Slipspace#_note-1
Faster FTL drives would allow the Empire to strike where they are powerful, and the Covenant was not.

I've read that turbolaser commentary before and find it unconvincing based on optics. I posted it around here somewhere.

__________________
"What you think you thought you saw you did not see." Agent J, MiB - Manhatten Bureau

In response Humphrey’s comment, it took a whole fleet for the Covenant to glass a planet (Show me where they don't?). It took ONE Death Star to DESTROY a whole planet!!!! And, only a few Star Destroyers could glass a planet. Plus ISDs (Imperial star Destroyers) are superior to Covenant Ships. It is true that Imperial troops are superior to Covenant ground forces. Imperial troops don’t run away when faced with enemies (like cowardly grunts), and the wise Military Commanders are the ones that make the Imperial Military “unbeatable” (When I say that I don’t mean invincible, but very strong and adapt to different situations. Best exemplified by the strategies of Palpatine, General Veers, Grand Admiral Thrawn, and many others…)

These statements are false. First the Covenant doesn't copy what they see, the Covenant only copy the Forerunner's technology (What did the Covenant Copy that UNSC had? I don't see Spartan-II Elites?). Second, the Covenant make jumps through slipspace that takes months in a Galaxy smaller than that of Star Wars!!! (Hyperspace takes shorter in a larger Galaxy!!! The massive DEATH STAR could make a jump through hyperspace faster than a Covenant Cruiser!!!!)

You shouldn’t make statements like that especially when you don’t understand what you are talking about. You are blinded by ignorance (from your opinion and not fact), and you are overestimating the UNCS (because you don’t understand all the facts). First of all, the UNSC were LOSING a war with the Covenant (which has incredibly fewer numbers and less advances than the Empire). The UNSC was greatly crippled by the war with the Covenant. (And don’t give me “the Spartans and Master Chief are invincible!” Because the Spartan project was condemned a FAILURE! (Even though the Spartans SAVED the UNSC on many occasions. The Spartan-II project had a HIGH casualty rate. Master Chief is “the last Spartan.” (Even though those who read the books know of a few who survived.) Master Chief isn’t invincible either. He had his bum rescued by many.) So what makes you think that the UNSC (who barely escaped ANNIHILATION in the hands of the Covenant) would defeat the Empire? What is in favor of the UNSC? What is in favor of the Empire?

UNSC:

Some fleets of ships
Marines
ODSTs
Spartans
Few strong leaders
(There really isn’t that much to list.)

Empire:

Many large fleets of ISDs
Millions of different star fighters (TIEs and many different types of them)
Millions of troopers
Shock troopers
Ops troopers
Commandos
Space troopers
Mercenaries (from hired guns to top Bounty Hunters like Boba Fett)
Millions of different types of battle droids (not Trade Federation)
Many strong leaders (like Thrawn, Veers, Tarkin…)
SITH LORDS
Dark troopers
Dark Jedi
(And much more… I could go on… and on… and on [like the energizer bunny])

UNSC ships aren’t “fitted for war against the covenant.” The Covenant creamed the UNSC in space battles. I don’t see the UNSC equipping their ships with shields like the Covenant. The Empire has even more advanced tech than the Covenant!!! Imperial shields were designed to absorb the impacted of strongly concentrated fire from heavy turbo lasers, and they even had thick shields to protect them from missiles, torpedoes, asteroids, and ship crashes. Covenant shields were designed to block un-concentrated plasma fire, and are vulnerable to concentrated plasma fire (read First Strike). Another problem (which you already addressed) is that the UNSC has limited fighters. You said they could probably build more, but “whose gonna fly it kid?” (Nice quote from Han) The UNSC has limited pilots as well, and training new ones would take a long time. The Empire builds hundreds of fighters and trains hundreds pilots in a short amount of time. TIEs are some of the fastest fighters in the galaxy (but the don’t have shields. This is why the X-wings have an advantage, but the Empire created different fighters with shields to counter the shielded X-wings.). TIE pilots are some of the best pilots in the galaxy (like Fel and dozens of others). The Empire has advanced the laws of physics and a better understanding of it. (Not to mention that the Chiss have an even better understanding than the Empire does, and their allies with the Empire!!!)

An R2 unit is seven score times as much advanced than UNSC A.I. R2-D2 has thousands of different functions, and can store and hold an extremely large unknown number of data. From the books and games, Cortana takes a while to download large amounts of data, but R2-D2 loads an ENTIRE databank of a MASSIVE BATTLE STATION in a short amount of time. Cortana can only “capture technology” if her systems allow it. (what I mean by that is that the Empire doesn’t use the same or similar type of consoles. There isn’t a “access point” that Cortana may enter. Cortana doesn’t have a outlet arm for accessing Imperial computers, but R2-D2 does have an adaptable arm for accessing computers through discs, slots, cards … Plus R2-D2 isn’t as “corruptible” as Cortana (seen in Halo 3). R2 could actually stop viruses and slicers from entering his system.

Like I said before, the Spartan program was a failure. Storm trooper armor is bullet proof and only concentrated plasma could penetrate it. Spartans are stronger, but with power gloves Stormtroopers would be able to outmatch a Spartan’s super strength. Plus Commandos are superior to Spartan-IIs, and not many weapons would be able to penetrate trooper armor (I’ll give credit to the Spartan Laser, but that only has 5 shots and is easy to out maneuver. UNSC has very few Spartan Lasers, because they are very expensive.) With greater armor and weapon technology plus greater numbers, the storm trooper beats the stronger, but (compared to a trooper) poorly armed and armored Spartan. Therefore, Storm trooper > Spartan

In response to this comment, we mentioned the Sun Crusher already, and the Empire wouldn’t even need it to defeat the Covenant (or UNSC). Though the Sun Crusher is great example of stronger Imperiail technology. (Same goes for the Eclipse)

The Empire has 25000 ISDs! But, that’s not including the cruisers, frigates, Super Star Destroyers, battle stations, super weapons, Dreadnaughts, and other vessels. The Covenant has only 5000 including all frigates, cruisers, flagships… Plus the Imperial ships outmatch and outnumber the Covenant with ships with better shields and weapons. It wouldn’t take the Empire that long to wipe out the Covenant. Like you said… “Poor Covenant….”

And I was exaggerating (and joking) when I gave those odds, I said that because the Empire does outnumber the Covenant. The odds against the covenant are very high (but not that high). Do you see my point? I didn’t really mean 999,999,99… to 1. I was also exaggerating with the Imperial dark knight, but a dark knight could take on units of them at a time. (Plus there isn’t even close to there being 100 Spartans) I was merely making joke that was out-of-proportion. But the true proportion is in fact in favor of the Empire.

That isn’t true at all. World Devastators have extreme armor that isn’t penetrated by most plasma or highly concentrated plasma (Though super laser and extremely concentrated plasma could penetrate it). But the Covenant or the Empire for that matter, wouldn’t be able penetrate a World Devastator’s armor (But a Death Star, Eclipse… could penetrate it with super laser).

Like I said before, I was joking about the huge proportions. I definitely wasn’t overestimating anybody or anything. I was merely joking with full knowledge of the truth. A wise commander (like Thrawn) would have known that it was a joke and not truth. Next time, I’ll try to make it clear for those of who can’t discern between a joke (or exaggeration) and a fact. If you still believe me to be “overestimating,” than you need to check up your information or sources. With or without the humorous jokes, the Empire still wins.

I’m sorry if I’m being too harsh. Please, forgive, me. I’m a huge Star Wars and Halo fan such as yourself, and I enjoy these debates. I meant no harm. I think you only misunderstood my post. Well, see you around.

Wow! Bravo! You basically summed up all that I’ve been saying (well, the main points) in one post. (And you say you don’t know that much.) Your understanding of the situation is what I desire that others may understand as well.

By the way (You probably already figured out), I’m Commander Thrawn. See you around T-man.

=)




No. It wouldn’t turn out like that. The Empire would defeat the Covenant, and then the UNSC would surrender to the Empire. A fleet, garrison, and an Imperial Governor would keep control and the Empire would bore Earth’s population with the extreme advance of physics and chemistry… Earth would be bored from long lectures on the Imperial advances of science. The Empire would rule the Milky Way, and peace and order would be obtained through Imperial sovereignty.

=P

The Covenant fleet was greatly decimated by the time of Halo 3 from years of war with UNSC. What makes you think the Covenant could stand against the Empire (which is a bigger threat)?

The Covenant fleet (at it’s peak) barely even reached 5000 (an estimation from ships of all sizes). Most of the fleet was made up of the smaller ships (and the smaller portion made up the capitals, cruisers, destroyers etcetera). If you’re talking “Palpatine era”, then you have to consider the 25000 Imperial Star Destroyers not including smaller ships, dreadnaughts, cruisers, frigates, super weapons… I think you need to do more research. Look I know what I’m talking about, I’ve read the books and comics, played the games, and searched facts through different sites on both sides. I have information to counter yours. Show me where there were more than 5000 Covenant ships? I just rechecked my resources just in case you were right, but I found nothing to back up your story. Check Halopedia, read the books, play the games, if you find something then show me. Beating the game on legendary has nothing to with this topic. I’ve beaten it on legendary as well, but it has no revelation to this topic.

Covenant Fleet = (through my rescources I found that the Covenant consisted of 1550 ships, but I will estimate 5000 because it wouldn’t as bad of a slaughter as 1550) estimated 5000

Imperial Fleet = millions

“At its peak, it fielded millions of warships and fulfilled Emperor Palpatine’s will throughout the galaxy.” (Wookieepedia, Imperial Navy)

During Palpatine’s reign, the Empire had about 25000 ISDs that was included in his millions of ships.

Hmm… lets see here… 5vs 1000x (millions)

That’s a 1: 200 ratio!!!! For every one Covenant ship, there would be 5 Imperial Star Destroyers and 195 other ships!!!!!

If those numbers aren’t enough proof to show how much the Covenant is outmatched, then you’re very ignorant.

Now for some ship-to-ship comparison. Imperial Star Destroyers (ISDs) turbolasers are highly-charged plasma that is concentrated into a thin bolt for maximum effect in concentrated areas. Their deflector shields were designed to reflect as much concentrated firepower as possible, and particle shields were meant to stop asteroids, torpedoes, and ship collisions. Covenant ships use plasma cannons that fire plasma that isn’t concentrated into a thin bolt (as turbolasers), and their shields were meant for deflecting “un-concentrated” plasma. As seen in Fist Strike, when Covenant ship’s shields encounter concentrated plasma fire, the shields are defenseless and the ships armor is easily pierced. An Imperial Star Destroyer’s turbolaser would cut cleanly through a Covenant ship’s shields and armor like “a hot knife through butter.” Covenant ships could barely stand against a Star Destroyer’s turbolasers.

Most definitely the battles in space would be over quickly. Superior numbers and technology would defeat the Covenant fleet. In space, the Empire would dominate (and that’s not even mentioning the Death Star).

“Suicidal” Brutes and Elites would be no match for particle shields, thus their death would be in vain.

Covenant ships might be able to escape the gravity of Interdictors, but they wouldn’t escape from the large tractor beam projectors (depends on what type of tractor beam, but it is possible). For instance, one ISD might not be able to hold and entire Covenant Capital, but three could.

The Covenant is “out numbered by a ton,” but stronger ships and vessels etcetera, also outmatch the Covenant. You are right that many are ignorant to the facts. Read the books and comics. The “Legacy era” Empire (or actually New Empire) would beat the Covenant 3x harder. Technology has tripled in that time.

First let’s straighten something out, everyone is “bickering” over what era it is. Personally, I don’t give a “bantha’s backside,” it really doesn’t matter (well, actually it does but the out come is the same: the Covenant would lose). All the different eras, have different pros and cons, but no matter which era you choose, the Empire has the favor of winning.

The way I see it (in eras) there is the Post Clone Wars era (pre-Episode III and after), Empire era (Episode IV-Episode VI), Imperial Remnant era (after Episode VI), and New Empire era (Legacy). Now that isn’t official, but it does break down the “Imperial eras” well. Now I could break down the Covenant into eras, but I really don’t want to; because number one, to quote myself “I don’t give a ‘bantha’s backside,’” and number two, it is very absurd. Think about it if you select any “era” then, you have to consider what time period both galaxies are in. Halo takes place in the future, SW takes place in the past. I hate that stupid theory from post #1 that began this topic, that some “worm-timehole-phat-cosmic-piece-of-phooy” warped both sides into fighting. Do you know what that sounds like to me??? Well, the obese “thing” from The Rise of the Silver Surfer ate the covenant fleet and then miraculously farted the Covenant fleet into the middle of an Imperial fleet. Then both sides were like “What the…” The Covenant was like “destroy the inferiors,” and the Empire was like “conquer the new species.” Sorry if I’m going on and on, but it is pathetic. I’m not going to waste my time on that theory so I’m just comparing the facts. So I don’t want to hear (excuse me) read any post stating, “no, the ‘blablabla’ wasn’t in that era” or “hey, that ‘blablablabla’ wasn’t created until after Halo 3.” So, I don’t care if you guys want to oppose my suggestion. I’m just comparing “fleet to fleet,” “ship to ship,” “army to army,” “tech to tech” etcetera. Unless you’re comparing a certain fleet, group, division, or army, I don’t want to hear it.

The Covenant, especially the prophets, are very stupid when it comes to military strategies. Now, very thick shields like planetary and particle shields are strong enough to protect the Empire from the Halo effect. The Imperial fleet would either evacuate by entering hyperspace (fast enough to escape a Halo’s activation), or turn on their particle or planetary shields (particle shields are on every ISD, the Death Star (well at least the Second one) had a planetary shield plus other shields).

A Super Star Destroyer would be able to take on a Covenant fleet (especially the Executor). And, a handful of Star Destroyers would be able to destroy a Halo installation.

You are right to a certain degree. No one knows EXACTLY how large the Covenant is. From the books and games, we find that the Covenant is estimated to be at it’s peak, about 5000 ships, but from reading the facts, the evidence pointed that there were less than that. But, even if we assumed exactly 5000, then the Covenant fleet was extremely decimated by the end of Halo 3. The Covenant wasn’t keen on occupying planets; they were keener on finding their artifacts from the forerunners. It is very unlikely that the Covenant occupied “thousands of worlds.” From evidence, we know that the Covenant was made up from a few different species (Hunters, Grunts, Elites ect.). So we can assume that each species had a home world, but we aren’t sure if the Covenant is even occupying their home worlds. During the war with UNSC, the Covenant only occupied worlds that had revelation to their search for forerunner tech and activation of the rings. The Covenant glassed any world that was no use for them. Glassed worlds aren’t much use for the Covenant so they lat them be. If you want to say that the Covenant, claimed planets, I believe that the number would less than 50. I know the Elites speak of their home world, but the Elites are not the Covenant. The Covenant forced the Elites into service by enslaving them (same with Brutes, Hunters, Grunts etc.). The Elite fleet by the end of Halo 3 was only about 6 or so Covenant cruisers.

The reason we compare from Covenant to Empire is because it will lead us to the conclusion of which side would theoretically win. You are right that actual game play doesn’t have much revelation, but a Banshee is extremely slow, a T-47 airspeeder (snowspeeder) could out fly a Banshee. Here are some facts (look them up):

T-47 airspeeder’s speed: 650 km/h

Banshee’s speed: 100 km/h

A Banshee is slow.

The Covenant does not have a better tactical and navigational “faculty” than the Empire. Navigationally, the Empire has better navigators because of better systems. The Covenant never mapped or navigated as mush as the Empire did. The SW galaxy is huge, and hyperspace travel is much faster than a slipspace. Imperial Navigators aboard an ISD have to be constantly at work for high-performance standards. Now tactically, the Covenant is made up of idiots who weren’t meant for military tactics (but I will give credit to the Elites). The Elites are the only ones that aren’t tactically insane. Now the Empire has many military and tactical geniuses that command Imperial fleets, but sadly due to corruption there are a few idiots in high command, but Darth Vader took care of that. Many high-ranking Imperials are military geniuses, and have battled over a thousand different worlds during the Clone Wars and the reign of the Empire. The best of all Imperial military geniuses is Grand Admiral Thrawn. If Thrawn commanded the fleet that fought the Covenant, the battle would end very quickly (more so than if not commanded by Thrawn). Thrawn wouldn’t even need half the total fleet.

The Covenant wasn’t built for war, but built for an “insane glorious redemption.”

The Empire wouldn’t stumble against an opponent of similar strength. Look at the Clone Wars, the CIS was closely matched to the Republic, and by Revenge of the Sith, they were losing the war. The Empire fought off other closely matched battles before during the Galactic Civil War, the New Republic War, and even the Imperial Civil War (during Legacy). The Empire hasn’t fallen yet, but the Covenant was extremely decimated by the end of Halo 3. If the Humans and Sangheili could beat them, what makes a much larger and stronger Empire from not being able to best them?

Oh, I’ll show you one droid… R2-D2.

R2-D2 could fly, repair, and modify many ships. Cortana could fly and can only do small repairs and modifications that her computer could let her (ship computers etc.).

R2-D2's body could be damaged a thousand times, and some Alliance techs could fix R2 up.
Cortana's holographic body will not get damaged, but if her computer drive (or data chip) were damaged she would be history.

You seem to forget that R2-D2's databanks held the entire data readouts of the Death Star (this itself is a lot), thousands of ships, many holorecordings, messages, thousands of various computers, droid memory, thousands of vehicles, data cards, chips, memory ships, and still had enough memory to fill an entire Planetary Library!

The entire Rebel Alliance owes R2-D2 their LIVES!!! R2-D2 saved Padme` many times; Luke over 100 times; Han many times; Anakin many times; Obi-Wan many times; the entire worlds of Naboo, Tamuzan, and Mon Calamari owe their lives to this droid; millions owe R2 their lives after the Almanian crisis (which R2 stopped a signal from being sent to blow thousands of Thermal Detonators secretly installed in droids owned by millions and millions of people across the SW galaxy)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every second this droid is working it seems to constantly save more and more!

Cortana has only been on a few ships, modified a few, I don't think she's ever fixed a ship in her time! She has saved less than 1 thousand humans. R2 has saved Millions upon Millions of lives (some R2 has saved more than once).

R2-D2 can fly, swim, and roll across the land. Cortana can't do that.

R2-D2 can mess with a computer, paint a ship, fix a ship, modify a ship, salvage a ship, send holo images, record visual activity, scan for (life forms, energy readings, thermal readings, signals...), serve food and drinks, fuel a ship, fix droids, start up a "dead" ship or droid, load cargo, activate vehicles, probe consoles, monitor things, guard things, grab things, for that matter, and R2-D2 could do so many things that I would write a novel by the end of it all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Artoo has thousands of different functions. Cortana doesn't.

Artoo has many arms, devices, gizmos, gadgets, gear, and stuff that would surprise you if you didn't know about it.

Artoo has the logic of a very, very clever human. Cortana just has human logic.\

R2-D2 has master, but he could do whatever he wanted (as seen in A New Hope). R2-D2 is LOYAL. This is the reason he obeys most of the commands given to this droid.

Most Astromech droids get their memories wiped over time, but R2 escaped this. R2 stores data dating back from the old Republic.

Cortana and R2-D2 can't take over any computer system given to them. Cortana doesn't have the power capabilities to filter the standard computer of the SW galaxy (the Forerunner has human based tech; this is the reason Cortana was able to get inside Forerunner and Covenant computers. Cortana doesn't have a computer interface arm (R2 does). So Cortana wouldn't be able to even read a simple SW data card. R2-D2 could read UNSC memory by insertion to the linkage data slot. R2-D2 also has Data Cable (located at the base of the head) capable of adapting to different computers and consoles. So, R2-D2 would be able to take over any computer system that his cable could adapt to.

R2 understands many languages (not as much as C3-PO), but can only communicate in beeps and whistles (that is why R2 hangs around the protocol droid).

Cortana is subject to corruption (as seen in game), while R2-D2 has back-up systems to counter corruption.

… R2 could even breakdance (as seen in SW: Droids)

Well, if you did your research you would have found an estimated fleet strength of less that 5000, and less than 50 occupied worlds. Of course, the Elites species is called Sangheili (you actually spelled it wrong btw). Your fleet estimates are off. Imperial Admiral Xytzn ‘Jar Wattinree commanded the Covenant fleet of 200 ships (not 50 fleets). At the end of Halo 3, the fleet was considerably less than that. The unknown fleet defending the elites home planet was defended by an unknown number of ships but that number couldn’t have been very large, because the war with the Covenant took it’s toll on the fleet. The Elites didn’t defeat the Covenant “single-handedly.” The Humans and Elites beat the Covenant. Your fleet numbers and ship estimations are incorrect (Wherever you’re getting that information from it definitely isn’t an official Halo site).

Those numbers were inaccurate (I checked). That’s right it does depend (mainly the Covenant) if both sides were at their peaks, but I think most everyone here is referring to the “Palpatine era” (or Empire era). But, the battle is still one-sided. Ship ratio is 1 to 200, and troop ratio would be even larger if I figured it out. The Covenant is extremely outnumbered.

Seraph fighters do have shields, but TIEs have better laser cannons that could easily penetrate those shields. TIEs are faster than Seraphs, and TIE pilots are the best pilots in the universe (look at Fel). TIE pilots either became the best or were easily destroyed by lack of shields. There were a few designs that used shields, but most of them were created after the Battle of Endor. Most TIE pilots seen in the movies were new and inexperienced. But, other squadrons like the 501st pilots and different squadrons that weren’t shown in the films were some of the best in the galaxy. TIE pilots had to adapt to the lack of shields somehow so after surviving pilots became almost undefeatable. TIEs have better weapons and are faster than Seraphs, but with lack of shields. I believe that on the scale level they are pretty even. But there were thousands of TIEs that were created and produced; and not so much Seraphs. You are right that the Imperials aren’t suicidal, but wrong that they fear death. They use fear to their own advantage (like Spartan-IIs). Would you say Spartans fear death? No, Imperial pilots are loyal to the Empire and would fight in the face of overwhelming odds, probably to the death; but they, are NOT suicidal. In the end, the overwhelming odds of faster TIEs would defeat the Seraphs.

There were around 66 Imperial ships (mostly ISDs) at the Battle of Endor and about 48 Rebel ships (most of them being smaller cruisers). I think you confused ships with fighters (around 2000 to 500). That makes a huge difference. The Emperor himself ordered his 50 Star Destroyers not to engage the Rebels because it was a trap. The Emperor wanted to create a “net” of ISDs so that the rebels would be doomed. That is why the Imperials sent out their fighters instead of eliminating the fleet.

It all depends on which era it is if their was a Sun Crusher or Eclipse. But if it’s “Palpatine’s era”, the Empire doesn’t need them when the battle is 5000 vs. 1000000x, and the Empire outnumbers the Covenant 1: 200. The Covenant and Empire are not even. Is 1: 200 an even match? No, the Empire is massive. This is no even battle, but a one-sided battle.

I was making clear arguments. I was being sarcastic. If you guys can’t decipher a joke from a statement, then… man, you guys need to loosen up or get a life. In the last paragraph, I gave you guys the real odds (no sarcasm).

There were plans for Dark troopers in the Emperor’s storehouse. If the Empire really wanted to, new Dark troopers could have been put into production. (When Thrawn found the Emperor’s storehouse he found a lot of secret blueprints, data, devices, weapons, and stuff that the Emperor hid to keep safe.)

TIE Maulers could run over troops, and they are very fast so dodging and outrunning the enemy wouldn’t be a problem for the Maulers, but I doubt the Empire would even use them during a conflict with the Covenant. Support squadrons of TIE Interceptors would make short work of any slow-moving Banshees and Ghosts, thus protecting the AT-ST walkers. AT-AT cannon fire would be more than enough to destroy a Scarab, but a Scarab’s main cannon is enough to penetrate an AT-AT. They are different but it is pretty much an even match between them. Though the Empire has a lot more Imperial Walkers than the Covenant has Scarabs, so in the end the AT-AT walkers would be left standing.

TIEs cannons are stronger than Seraph shields, and the TIEs are faster than Seraphs in dogfights the mass amount of faster TIEs would overwhelm and outmaneuver the Seraphs.
The same way Earth was protected from the Halo activation, the Imperials would be protected from a Halo activation (plus others could escape an activation by a hyperspace jump).

The Imperial fleet would have no problem destroying or even salvaging the Halo installations.

Elites are probably the best that the covenant has to offer, but that wouldn’t be a factor for Imperial troops that have fought bigger (and worse) species before (during the post-Clone Wars/Empire era).

Wait one second! Hold up here, what do you mean “evolved.” The humans from the SW galaxy might have micro-evolved but they didn’t just evolve (you really have to specify that). No evolution took place between the humans in the SW galaxy, except microevolution (There is a major difference between microevolution and macroevolution).

A Snowspeeder is not an equivalent of a Banshee. It is greater than a Banshee. “T-47 airspeeder’s speed: 650 km/h; Banshee’s speed: 100 km/h”

Suicidal Covenant troops wouldn’t be an advantage to the Covenant, but rather to the Empire. “One less ‘bugger’ to deal with” –Imperial soldier



Yes, it does depend on the time period. AT-AT walker’s armor could withstand magma. Covenant ships would no match for a superior ISD. The many other ships like cruisers and dreadnaughts would also add to the Imperial fleet (not just ISDs). Clone Commandos are warriors superior to Spartans.

Your answer is coming soon...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5ks1...eature=related

Let the battle begin....

__________________
I don't believe in mathematics. Albert Einstein

Biologically speaking, if something bites you it's more likely to be female. Desmond Morris.

Quantum analysis is scientific dithering

Professor Frink: My observations n'hey, n'hey, show the universe could be a torus Weh, uh, or toriod it may like the typewriters and bananas and the monkeys with big teeth the biting the screaming Mm-hai!

Homer: mmmmm... doughnuts!

Hey thrawn. I agreed with most of what you said, but AT-AT vs the scarab would favor the AT-AT. Since the AT-AT's armor can withstand magma I highly doubt that an un-concentrated beam from the scarab could penetrate the AT-AT armor (unless it hits the AT-AT's neck). The AT-AT would more than likely attack first since it does not have the charging delay like the scarab. Moreover if the AT-AT and the scarab ever face each other they would probably be a far distance from each other, which favors the AT-AT. Since the beam of the scarab is un-conentrated it would not have a great effect from a distance. The AT-AT however has very concentrated plasma and has a devastating affect on other vehicles without shields(the scarab does not have a shield). If somehow I'm wrong then another counter would be a jet trooper. He would fly on top of the scarab and throw a thermal detenator on the scarab and the scarab would be history.

The UNSC vs the empire is a really bad match. If the unsc were given 100 years then the battle would be a lot closer, due to the fact that they have recently invented lazer technology. But the empire has 20,000 years of galactic history so the unsc would lose.

I have a question. Who would win in an 1 0n 1 battle. Mon calamari capitol ship(1200 meters)
or an Imperial Star destroyer(1605 meters).

Thats how the cookie crumbles. LOL.

It's been a while since I've been here. I feel more humbled now, after thinking about this post forum.

Grand Admiral Thrawn, I'm sure you remember me. I respect you and your knowledge on Star Wars and the Galactic Empire but I have to say, there is only one way to prove the strength of the two factions we have been discussing: Science.

For example, while pursuing the Millenium Falcon through an asteroid field, a star destroyer can be seen firing at and vaporizing asteroids. To properly calculate the firepower of the lasers, you first must measure the size of the asteroid in pixels and compare it roughly to the star destroyer. Than, through certain mathematical formulas, you must determine how much power would be recquired to achieve what the Star Destroyers armament was able to do.

Now, in The Empire Strikes Back, a star destroyer is seen blasting an asteroid, which, compared to the ship itself, measures about 40 meters across, using pixel based measurments. It would require 30 terajoules to melt the asteroid, and around 250 terajoules to vaporise it. However, I am unsure what type of turbolaser was used (light, heavy, point defense, etc.)

Now, to determine the strength of Covenant firepower, we need to find an example similiar to the one I have just explained and use science, not opinion, to uncover the truth.

Unless anyone here is familiar with physics, it is safe to say it is impossible to properly establish a solid fact on firepower.

To find out more, please refer to this site "http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Power/index.html". This is where I learned to properly calculate the energy output on weapons in the Star Wars galaxy but I must admit, I do fully not understand the formulas regarding the topic.

[Hey everyone, I’ve had trouble with my user account Grand Admiral Thrawn so I created this new account. Even though the title has changed, Thrawn lives.]

Hey T-man, ok, I have researched more on the subject, and now I agree with you. AT-ATs are superior to Scarab walkers. When I researched the Scarab, I found out dozens of flaws in the design, armor, and weaponry. The Scarabs main cannon wouldn’t be able to penetrate AT-AT armor (except in the neck) is impervious to all, but the heaviest of concentrated plasma (much more concentrated than a Scarab’s main cannon). Also, the Scarab’s main cannon is weakly protected and can barely reach targets that are .4 miles away. Weak in design, the Scarab would be annihilated in the face of an Imperial All Terrain Armored Transport (AT-AT). With only the neck being an option for the Scarab, the Scarab would have to maneuver around the AT-AT to get a clear shot. By that time it would be completely destroyed by the AT-AT’s heavily concentrated dual cannons.

Sorry, T-man, you’re right. I researched the AT-AT well before, but I didn’t research the Scarab, but now that I did, I found the Scarab to be worse off than I estimated. (Before I thought it was an even match, but now… AT-AT > Scarab)

(like T-man pointed out) The Empire doesn’t even need to use an AT-AT to defeat a Scarab. A jet trooper (or commando, or a lot of other possible combinations of different troopers) could easily fly onto one and destroy it internally by planting a thermal detonator.

The Empire would easily defeat the UNSC. The odds against the UNSC being victorious are huge. The Empire would be, plausibly, the victor in the battle. UNSC doesn’t stand a chance.

Hmmm…

In a one-on-one battle between a MC80 Star Cruiser and a Imperial-class Star Destroyer, I would say the MC80 would win, but it really depends on the circumstances. No two Mon Calamari Star Cruisers are the same. It depends on how it was fitted. Ackbar’s MC80 flagship, Home One that was at the Battle of Endor, was the most powerful ship out of both Imperial and Rebel fleets at the Battle of Endor. Most Mon Calamari Star Cruisers have heavier shields, but less firepower than an Imperial-class Star Destroyer. I still think that the Mon Cal would be victorious in the end, but it does depend on its offensive and defensive qualities. But the Empire has hundreds of Imperial-class Star Destroyers; the Mon Calamari Star Cruisers would be outnumbered in the end.

Rotflol “that’s how the cookie crumbles”

=)


And to MiddleEarthfan, I agree that science is a key role when comparing strengths, but when comparing to fictional factions that use fictional sciences and unconfirmed facts. That, my friend, like you pointed out, is impossible. But, we can still view results of the firepower (even if we don’t have an exact figure).


“That’s impossible, even for a computer!” –Wedge Antilles (A New Hope)

You see, in SW, ISD (Imperial Star Destroyers) use lasers that is the result of superheated plasma that is concentrated and charged into a thin beam. The exact amount of energy is unconfirmed, but because of the results we see in the films and EU (expanded universe). One may make the conjecture that the amount of energy would be very high.

By concentrating the superheated plasma, the energy is magnified. Thus, resulting in a very effective beam of energy capable of vaporizing and even exploding on contact with enemy vessels and ships.

Once again, ISD turbolasers use cannons that fired superheated plasma gas that is concentrated into a thin beam for effect. An ISD’s turbolasers can be charged for and magnified to great quantities (I don’t have an exact amount, but can assure you that an ISD’s turbolasers could fire an energy output much greater than 200 gigatons per shot).

Covenant ships use heated plasma in their weaponry. They do not concentrate their energy for maximum effect. Uncharged, the plasma is not as effective it would have been as if concentrated. Cortana even states that concentrated plasma fire is much more effective. And in the book, First Strike, a beam of concentrated plasma cuts through a Covenant ship and shields like a “hot knife through butter.” The Covenant is prepared for combat against weapons that fire unconcentrated plasma.

If the Empire concentrates plasma into laser beams of high-unknown quantities and the Covenant uses heated plasma to an unknown amount of energy, we still can compare them through their results and other means. Plus that’s only firepower we’re comparing here, move on to shields and that’s another story.

Now that some facts have been established (even though exact amounts are unknown from both sides), make a final conclusion.


In post #309, I made a typo (if you found it). I meant to say "Hmm… lets see here… 5000 vs 1000000x (millions)".

(I would just edit, but I made an account change)

When I first started reading this forums I thought it would be an even match. But by now it's really obvious the Empire hands-down could defeat the covenant. The empire have supirour technology and numbers.

Keep reading, I'm currently bashing together a rebuttal to Thrawns "Arguments"

There are many points that he's overlooked and purposely misinterpreted and as soon as I finish writing the rebuttal, I'll post and you'll see the Covenant isn't as bad as Thrawn makes it out to be.

In the argument of who's weapons are more powerful, through research I have found that most power levels for Star Wars weapons eventually come down to the Base Delta Zero (BDZ) conclusion (slagging a planet to provide power levels). However, in all the research that I’ve done, not one of the people who have argued using the BDZ, have used all of the facts. The only thing that they bring up is the vague “fact” that one Imperial Star Destroyer could BDZ a planet in exactly one hour. This is bad research on their parts, as the only quote that I can find mentions multiple hours to do this, not one, but many.

“These colossal, wedge-shaped behemoths, bristling with turboweapons and carrying entire TIE squadrons within them, each possess more firepower than the entire planetary forces of most worlds, and can reduce a planet surface to smoking debris in a matter of hours" Star Wars Technical Journal, vol.2, p.17



Glassing on the other hand is much more in-depth and devastating, and would require much more Power and Time to acomplish.

“The chief watched for an hour and didn’t move a muscle. The planet’s lakes, rivers and oceans vaporized. By tomorrow, the atmosphere would boil away, too. Fields and forests were glassy smooth and glowing red-hot in patches”
"The Fall of Reach" pg.8

In this quote, the Chief had watched the Covenant glass the planet for an hour straight. During that time, the planets water resources had been completely destroyed (vaporized, the ed meaning past tense)and the Covenant had already finished glassing the landmasses (As there was no mention of continued bombardment)

“The Covenant occupation fleet maps the latitude and longitude of a planet's surface, divide it into grids, and bombard each grid with heavy plasma fire, thereby obliterating all life on the planet and turning its surface to glass. This is a form of Vitrification. After the glassing is done, the planet is a red smoldering sphere. After a few days, the atmosphere of the planet supposedly corrodes and dissipates, leaving it truly barren”
Halopedia on Glassing


Vitrification as shown is many times better than just Slagging. Slag is an impure mixture of the melted materials, while Vitrification takes this kind of action one step further and attempts to purify it into a Glassy state.

Base Delta Zero
It takes one Star Destroyer to Base Delta Zero a planet in a matter of hours (assume 4-6 hours, because if it were one then it would have said "one", if it were two or three it would have said "a few", and if it were more than six it would have said "several")
Glassing
It takes 36 Covenant ships to Glass a planet in less than an hour (For this arguement I'll assume 1 Hour) that means that one ship could do it in less than 36 hours. Also, seeing as how Glassing is much more thorough than just Slagging, it would require many times the fire power (I'll guess at 3 times, but could easily be more)

Meaning that One Covenant Cruiser could Slag a planet in less than 12 hours. Which would mean that One Covenant Cruiser would only be half as powerful as an ISD.

When calculating the amount of power per shot, it becomes clear that Covenant Plasma torpedoes are many times greater than the average Turbolaser on an ISD. Using stardestroyer.net we find that in order to effectively reduce a planet to slag one would need 240 Petatons worth of energy. As I have stated before, Glassing requires much more energy than just slagging, and would require at least triple the amount of power (About 700+ Petatons)

Using 15 seconds between shots (I established this fact long ago in this discussion) and one ship glassing a planet in 36 hours, we come to 8640 shots needed to Glass a planet. Adding in that it would require at least 700 Petatons to Glass a planet rather than slag it, the power behind One Plasma Torpedo is approximately 80 Teratons per shot. This is well above the rated value for turbolasers (only a max of 200 gigatons per shot)

As I have Stated in “Base Delta Zero vs Glassing” the damage over time of Covenant Plasma weapons is roughly equal to half that of an ISD. Although Commander (or was it Admiral?) Thrawn keeps pointing out that:

1) Covenant Plasma is completely ineffective because it is not Concentrated

2) That when aboard the Ascendant Justice, Cortana refined the plasma torpedoes into a beam that he thinks is similar to a Turbolaser

3) Because Covenant ships couldn’t survive even one hit from this refined Covenant Turbolaser they wouldn’t even be able to withstand even one hit from an actual Turbolaser


He is wrong on all of these points (Has he really done research on this?)


1) If I were to shoot a target with a shotgun rather than a pistol or rifle, it would still damage it. Even though the damage is spread out, it still has enough power behind it to be just as effective as other guns (If it weren’t then we wouldn’t see any shotguns). And yes I know this point is a weak argument, but read on.

2) The Main difference between the shots that Cortana fired and any Turbolaser is that the BEAMs of plasma that were fired lasted a lot longer than any turbolaser shot ever will. That it took several seconds for the beams to be able to penetrate and destroy the Covenant ships. The only reason that they did destroy them was that it compressed several shots into one stream depleting the plasma reserves for the three turrets that were fired.

a. Another point to make is that she Moved the beams like a scalpel, there was no “Hot knife through butter”, that came later when she was using Two ships engines to power one turret dumping everything into it (The turret overloaded as a result of the excessive amounts of energy passing through it) It would make sense that having two ships reactors powering one turret and using all of the weapons stores from all of the Plasma turrets would be able to cut a ship in two like a “Hot knife through butter”

3) Seeing as how each Torpedo is roughly 80 Teratons, compressing several or more shots into a single beam would mean that it would deal more than 500 Teratons to only a small point of the shields in the span of a few seconds. While I’ve heard that some Star Destroyers are able to do 400 Teratons with a full broadside, they have never shown the accuracy or the speed to be able to dump every single shot into one point on a shields surface in the time given.

Your analogy of concentrated plasma is wrong. You didn't even use plasma as a example, which is a weak argument. A strong argument would be the spartan laser vs the scarabs main gun. The spartan laser doesn't fire as long but it destroys its target instantly while the scarabs main cannon doesn't. In fact the weakness in un-concentrated plasma is it doesn't travel at a fast enough speed to inflict massive damage as concentrated plasma does. Play halo 3 on legendary. You cant survive if you get "lasered" but the scarabs main cannon doesn't always kill the character you play, Master Chief. For instance the spartan laser can instantly destroy a ghost or a chopper but it takes the scarabs main cannon 2-3 seconds do accomplish what the spartan laser can in milliseconds.You can easily dodge the scarabs main cannon while in a vehicle because the plasma firing is not very fast. The Scarabs main cannon is only effective for a few hundred yards. At half a mile it is ineffective. The spartan laser however is closer if not equal to the Empires technological weapons and its firing could go on for miles. That is why the spartan laser is more effective than the scarabs main cannon. That is why concentrated plasma is more effective than un-concentrated plasma. What was the point in discussing bombardment both sides use? Ha, the empire could just use the death star. The covenant doesnt have any technology that can destroy a planet in just seconds. They have halo rings and the ark(forerunner technology) but they can be easily destroyed by the empire. I actually think that everyone who thinks that the covenant would win just like halo more. If that is the case then that is bad.

hi, i've read the whole argument from start to finish, and i have to say the coveneant are gonna win the battles, but the empire would win the war.
anyways, i dissagree that the mjonir armor are inferior to the storm trooper's armor
in the beginning cutscene of halo 3, MC jumped out of a ship and lands on earth without a parashoot, how many storm troopers can do that and live?
also i think that the spartan's shield system protects them from radiation(not sure), but the storm trooper's doesn't
even though i favor the empire, i still think that the coveneant has a chance

How a bout this, Borg verses Covenant. And I don't mean Janeway Borg, I mean Worf 359 Borg.

__________________

Even I stated that that argument was slightly flawed, and I was talking more about their ships.

But, by what you say, that means that covenant plasma would still be effective enough, but would just require slightly more shots to kill. This is something they are use to already; by canon Covenant plasma fire usually takes only two hits to fully incapacitate an armoured human, so against Stormtroopers it might take only three or four shots. For a 360~540 shots per min weapon that's not too much extra time spent per target.

Death Star? Ha, don't drag that thing into this. I'm quite sure that a massed volley from an entire fleet would be able to overpower the shields in a section, allowing a second volley to slide through the gap and gut it, or at least knock out it's super laser. I'd think the fragging of the super laser would be the more likly case though.

Oh and nothing would survive the Halo rings, period. Not even planetary shields! Or even a short jump to Hyperspace. You know why? Because the Forerunners designed the rings to be that way, they designed it so that the ONLY defense against it is to be extremely far away from it. For their own protection the Forerunners got around this by tricking physics: Onyx, the shield world actually existed millions of light-years within compressed space inside the planet, and the "Shield" that protected the Earth was actually a portal to the edge of the Galaxy. It only protected the Earth because it effectively placed the Earth far outside of the Galaxy and therefore out of the Halos range.

You also mentioned the Scarab. It has also been mentioned multiple times in previous posts, all of which make the misguided assumption that it is completely inferior to the AT-AT. Actually, the Scarab would own the At-At in any engagement that the Scarab would fight in. Simply because the damn thing is many times faster and many times more agile than those ponderous mechanical cows. I do agree that in a long distance fight across wide open terrain the Scarab would die a horrible death, but that's not how they deploy. They are meant for close in fights in extremely difficult terrain, like mountains and such. What would be the case would be if an AT-AT was to be walking through a pass or across the bottom of a gorge, or anything like that the Scarab would maneuver to be behind the target, pop out of cover and engage. While the AT-AT is busy trying to out turn the Scarab it gets an @ss full of plasma.

But wait, it was also said that AT-AT's can survive MAGMA! So magma's what? Slightly less than 2000 degrees C, and Covenant Plasma is probably 8000~10000 degrees C... So what Magma or no Magma, Even the most heat resistant metals can only withstand around 4000 degrees C before melting. Even so, if this super metal that the AT-AT's use is actually able to withstand more than 8000 degrees heat, the duration that the Scarabs main cannon fires for would horribly weaken the metal and cause it to easily deform, if it were to hit a leg then that would mean complete immobilization, and eventual death.

Scarab would win with better speed and maneuverability, the Advantage of surprise, and sustained fire.



Covenant soldiers would switch to solid projectile weapons like the Carbine and Needler then slaughter the borg drones, also even in hand to hand I'd think them equal in strength. But with Elites being more agile I'd still give them the win.

But as for Space Battles... Massed Volleys until eventual adaptation? Maybe they could get rid of enough of the Cubes to try Ramming attacks?

The empire would bombard the ark and the halo rings. I really don't understand why you think the death star would be destroyed by a covenant fleet. First off the deathstar has hundreds of thousands of tie fighters and bombers from it's hangers. Second it has hundreds of thousands of turbo laser towers on its surface(which would be almost impossible for a covenant fleet to bombard the death star, well if they even get to that step, which is highly unlikely). Third there would be a imperial fleet attacking as well, the death stars supper laser fires every 3 minutes. Fourth using capital ships to take out the death star would end in failure. Small fighters can though but the covenant does not have any small fighters that are fast enough or powerful enough to do any havoc. Comeon, the banshe is a piece of crap. The empires small fighters like the tie phantom and defender can easily destroy any small fighter that the covenant gives them. Plus the turbo laser towers would also take care of the small fighters. I don't think you realize the difference between concentrated and un-concentrated plasma is. This why in space the covenant stands no chance at all. Do you think the covenant has laser technology of the death stars supper laser(concentrated plasma), No.Did you ever consider the fire-power of the ATAT. I guess not. The ATAT would shot the scarab in the legs and it would fall down, or it would shot the scarabs main-cannon and destroy it. Thats pretty simple. The scarab has to charge its shot so the ATAT would more than definitely strike first, which is why the scarab ultimately loses. Even infantry could take down the scarab alone. A storm trooper would throw a thermal detonator on one of the scarab's legs and the explosion would take down the scarab. A jet trooper would fly on to the scarab a throw a thermal detonator on the scarab, fly of and watch the scarab blow up. Let me see a covenant fleet go through an astroid field like the empire did. Yea, they wouldn't last a day. Their un-concentrated plasma would have little effect on the asteroids. The empire went days searching for the melinium falcon and it took days for the isd's to lose their shield protection from asteroids pounding their shields. Their turbo-lasers vaporized the asteroids which were around 40 meters in diameter. Do you really think a covenant cruiser can do and withstand all of that? Not really.

The reason Picards tommy gun worked was because their shields weren't tuned to solid projectiles. However, given time, I am sure they would adapt. After all, they must have met a race that used guns SOMETIME before.

__________________

This is a fascinating subject.

Weapon wise, the Covenant is ahead of the Empire. Alot.


The Empire

Space Battle

Cons:
The Empire's average TLs are only about 500 kilotons (if I recall correctly), while their heavy turbolasers are no more than a megaton or two. Their shielding also has problems in that it seems that they put the shield generators on the outside of their hulls, leaving them extremly exposed to any damage that might leak through. It also hurts that the Empire doesn't utilize its great industrial power, mostly due to the fact that most of the races in Star Wars are pretty peaceful, and easily dominated by more aggressive species from other sci-fi. During the Clone Wars, they only had about a million or two Clone Troopers. Assuming they had a hundred clones per ship, that would place their army to something around 20,000 capital ships, with perhaps around 80,000 support ships. Now granted, this far outstrips the Covenant, which likely only have something of six to about ten thousand starships in their fleet.

Pros:
On the upside, the Imperial ships have a great deal of weapons on them, allowing them to even the power difference via sheer size. While an ISD would need two or three others to take down one Covenant Cruiser, they also have the SSD, which could easily take down ten or so Covenant Cruisers on their own. That's not even taking the Death Star into consideration, which would be devistating to the Covenant Fleet. Another ace in the hole is fighters. Imperial fighters are fast and agile, easily outstripping banshees in terms of speed, although they perhaps lack the same firepower (although their proton torpedoes are only a bit weaker...having the yield of modern hand grenades).

Imperial ships are also exceptionally massive, so while I can see them taking heavy damage, they are made to soak it up. Their thick armor and great size means that an ISD can salvaged, or possibly keep fighting while a Covenant Cruiser wouldn't be as lucky. But finally, Imperial hyperdrive easily surpasses Covenant FTL drive. Unfortuantely, it's just as hard to find ****, if not harder with hyperspace.


Ground Battle


Cons:
Unfortuantely, Storm Troopers are either borderline okay, or incompetent. For the point of the argument of debate, we'll assume that since these ARE actors, they'll be competent. That still leaves the issue about their horribly desinged AT-ATs, and their Walkers, but otherwise this dedication is going to help more than it hurts, despite the poor designs.

Pros:
The up side is the mass dedication and numbers of the Storm Troopers can easily surpass that of the Covenant. While the Covenant have better trained Elites and Brutes, the Empire can send wave after wave of troopers at them. They'll have a mound of them almost as high as some four story buildings, but they'll eventually tire out the Covenant ground troops.

Political Status

Cons:
The Empire, despite its apparent stability, has a terrorist issue, in the appearence of the Rebels. These Rebels would make a deadly enemy should they team up with the Covenant. Their knowledge of Imperial weakness and their technological knowledge would cause the Empire a big headache. The Empire could very well end up with an insurrection and an invasion on two different fronts, would could cause the Emperor to lose power over his Empire.

Pros:
The Emperor is very persuasive and is a powerful force user, perhaps the strongest in the universe, along with his servant Darth Vader. With them as head figures, the Empire would have a high morale for the war, as far as the public is concerned. With the image of the Covenants as demons incarnate, the Emperor's grip on the Empire could acutally tighten, and perhaps even crush the Rebellion.



The Covenant

Space Battle

Cons:
The Covenant doesn't have nearly as much ships as they would need to take down the empire in their traditional manner. Furthermore, their religious insanity drives them to waste energy. Rather than just destroy all life on a planet, they go to the whole trouble of glassing it first, which would take them days to possibly weeks. This fanatical hatred towards their enemies is alright when they hold such a vast numerical and technological advantage over the humans in Halo, but against the Empire, it's just going to leave them exposed to a devistating counter attack. To make matters worse, the Empire is just as ruthless as they are, but won't waste power and resources glassing a planet just for the hell of it. They'll either depopulate it, or incinerate it with the Death Star. Furthermore, their armor is exceptionally poor, and they put far too much faith in their shielding than they perhaps should.

Pros:
On the plus side, the Covenant hold much stronger weapons. While the empire fields 1-2 megatons for their heaviest batteries, the Covenant weaponry ranges in the 50-80 megaton range (given their power level over the UNSC). Their commanders are also more effective than ISD captains, and their ships are exceptionally agile compared to the beached-whale movment that the Empire has. Furthermore, their more bang for the buck means that Imperial shields are going to be more strained, since they're used to dispersing weaker levels of firepower.

Ground Combat:

Cons:
Not many cons here, but it should be noted that Banshees, and other Covenant ground dedicated forces are fairly slow compared to the zipping fighters that the Empire holds, making it easier to dominate the air, a very important tactical advantage for ground forces. Furthermore, the grunts tend to break apart when the enemy has the advantage, making them slightly less effective than Storm Troopers...well...mostly.


Pros:
The Covenant is perhaps one of the best sci-fis when it comes to ground fights. They have dedicated portable energy shields for their soldiers, giving them effective cover to enemy weapons. Elites and other high ranked Covenant soldiers posses personal shielding, and are armed with plasma weapons, and needlers. Furthermore, they are all well trained (save for the grunts...) and have a higher morale rate than any Storm Trooper would have. They also have Banshees, Ghosts, and other powerful dedicated land forces, which tend to pack more of a punch than their Imperial counterparts.


Political Status

Cons:
The Covenant is ruled by religious nut-jobs. While religion itself isn't bad, these guys take it to levels that would make the Pope blush. The Pope during the time of the Spanish Inquisistion that is. These guys aren't even concerned when they lost two thousand starships in combat, showing them to be ruthless and perhaps very foolish. They'll do anything to appease their delusion, perhaps making them a greater enemy than the Sith Lords. Furthermore, the tension between the Brutes and the Elites is a serious problem that could cause its very own insurrection.

Pros:
On the other hand, the clear religous focus also gives the Covenant army a great morale boost, and elminates almost any form of self-doubt. Their soldiers wouldn't even flinch at depopulating a planet, and the Prophets give them assurances when a little doubt might began to seed within them.


In the end it depends. Unless the Covenant gains access to Hyperdrive, they aren't going to be able to glass Imperial worlds, or harm ship yards. Furthermore, they are heavily outnumbered. While fighting defensively would mean many victories for them, they would be slowly reduced to nothing. If however, they manage to gain hyperdrive, and fight smartly, they should be able to force the Empire to possibly go on the defensive. Unfortunately, the Death Star could easily make short work of the Covenant.

All in all, I give it to the Empire for greater size, industry, faster FTL, and population.

Same thing really. Of course, this should be in another thread, but it would be a cumberstomp. The Borg vastly overpower most sci-fi races just out of sheer technological advantage, not to mention them having millions of ships, most of which seem to consist of Borg Cubes.

Number of problems here.

First of all, Expanded Universe isn't canon. Only The movies, scripts, trilogy novels (of the movies), and the TV series count as cannon. The most an ISD would do with their weaponry is likely depopulate the planet. That's why the Death Star was such a big deal. If an ISD or a few of them could beat the crap out of a planet in a day, its shock value would be next to zip.

Not to mention that if ISDs had such firepower, one would wonder about Han's satement in Episode IV about an entire fleet being unable to destroy Alderaan. If an ISD could destroy the surface of a planet in a day, they sure as hell could do it with hundreds of starships.

The second is your Halo quote. There is now way in hell you can vaporize all the oceans on a planet and still have anything resembling an earth-like atmosphere. No. F*ing. Way. Furthermore, planetary bombardments are likely to be using heavier yields than ship to ship weapons, otherwise the logic breaks down to a certain point. If the Covenant had been using that level of firepower upon the UNSC, their weapons would easily be in the gigaton range (EASILY), while the UNSC weaponry doesn't even reach the third digit megaton range, and are still using fusion (but to be fair, that is twice as powerful as current day fission).

At best, the Covenant ship-to-ship weapons are in the 50-80 megaton range. Which to be fair, is about 50-80 times stronger than even the highest Imperial weaponry calculations would be.

Yes they could. After all they have no shields or any other forms of defense. The only real defense they have is the fact that, ya can’t bloody well find them! Seriously, 200,000,000,000 stars in the galaxy and only seven have a Halo somewhere in their system. Good luck!

And also the Damn Ark isn’t even IN the Galaxy. It’s actually a few galactic radii away, somewhere out between the galaxies, and if you thought that finding a Halo would be hard then finding the Ark in the vast emptiness of space between the galaxies would be next to impossible.

Yes and Covenant Point Defense systems that take down hundreds of missiles a second can’t hit and destroy these small unshielded craft?

Actually not a single ship will ever take a hit from the Death Stars turbolasers. The simple reason is one of maneuverability and range, as the Covenants ships would simply keep their distance and dodge incoming fire. The reason I say this is because Covenant ships have been stated to be extremely maneuverable and fast, as well, plasma torpedoes fire at .5c or 150,000 km/s, their maximum “Effective” Range is also stated to be 200,000 km, that would mean that these ships would be able to dodge incoming plasma torpedo fire with less than a seconds warning. But as the large capitol ships of the Empire have been shown to not be as maneuverable (ANH: three ISDs collide in orbit around Tatooine) then the max effective range of 200,000 kilometer would be significantly increased. Add to that the fact that the Death Star moves rather slowly compared to other spacecraft, and would increase Covenants maximum effective range even more. As we see in the movies, Turbolasers don’t fire at c or even at half that, and as such would be at an extreme disadvantage. But if your one to say that Turbolasers do in fact fire at c, the ships of the Covenant would still be able to dodge, they’d only require slightly more distance between them than regular Covenant on Covenant battles.

But, as I’ve stated before in my posts, two Covenant CCS-Class Battlecruisers are roughly equal to one Imperial Star Destroyer with all of their maneuverability and firepower. And after realizing what the Death Star does, the Covenant would disengage from any attempt at closing and bombard the fleet and the Death Star from extreme range. The Imperial fleet would then have to pursue and leave the support of the Death Star or stay and get bombarded by plasma as their own shots get dodged. I’d think the imperials would choose to move out to pursue rather that sit and get pounded. Besides if the Imperial Fleet were to move out to engage the Covenant then they would be blocking the LOS of the Death Star. As for the Sizes of the fleets, the fleet guarding the Second Death Star only had several dozen capitol ships… Covenant fleets usually act in hundreds.

Not if the Covenant sits out of it’s Effective range and bombards it, after it wipes out the fleet guarding it of course. As for small fighters… ever heard of a Seraph? They’re the Covenants actual fighter craft because banshee’s are only meant for light air to ground support.

Yes… But not on that scale.

I’ve also said that in a head to head battle across open terrain the Scarab would lose. But the Scarab wouldn’t fight head to head, it would use it’s speed and maneuverability to easily get behind the AT-AT and pummel it to death with massive amounts of plasma. As well, the AT-AT’s weapons are all forward facing and it’s turning speed is ridiculously slow, so if the Scarab were to use it’s normal tactics and ambush it from behind, the AT-AT would die.

Imperial Infantry… would get owned by the Covenant infantry.

Site your source on that timeframe.